From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 11:33:03 +0200 Message-ID: References: <32292E31-1603-4EF9-B772-EBD378C32F76@gmail.com> <83o8mcfjxb.fsf@gnu.org> <83een8fi2u.fsf@gnu.org> <83blicfh1l.fsf@gnu.org> <837dt0f936.fsf@gnu.org> <20200911194852.sdtu3sthpdpkaijo@Ergus> <83zh5vedm8.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="18518"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android Cc: ghe@sdf.org,casouri@gmail.com,emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 12 11:34:13 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kH1vA-0004fF-M6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 11:34:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51748 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kH1v9-0005uM-OV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 05:34:11 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55008) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kH1uD-0005TC-Ux for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 05:33:13 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic315-15.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.134.125]:36830) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kH1uB-0000rD-PE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 05:33:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1599903190; bh=cZ4xiX/ObNQmsXWs/BOyiR0b5wuCPf9X+k593dk9YNU=; h=Date:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:To:From:From:Subject; b=Ho1jX5BHovGYr4t930xT37zGoiSQgYqNyX8/JPaSOET4Rd/iVZ0R+nu5derU4p6ELpjc4RIz0GGF16lSqY8qxKK2HbvXsS03qZNhP/vgqoQt1316HTUeKPGudD5g3r/W9pBQ9EPMFCuOCAReQz3aQjDT2PtDWInmUxbGZIb59M7EgPv2tBMwxk3WdKajHlY49ES4VzZXvnUZcZWJp6s4+XEHCuizgKCjlpUlW5ouobqqF4zYqJfrFq3DP+kGSuTkW+RVDKDO9MII3r/7+ukO1TRrldap2qYyi/eRqTxl1DagM7Tk9NCtbn6OVv30muCBG25Ni2GH6hVTbcKBB+eWpw== X-YMail-OSG: viIg88oVM1kbkxRAUgmVNQIUQPVI8Qmxp2D.Q_e3MY5rwEiSZo0JWVKl3InP85f cZp8.qC8CQkmyfff02a7zO8PkRhL.7jKQA8MIH2_JTsXfn89VCfUF_K4MU4t3uc427URLAnMJAqC NZEsaY.tF1CBPWphm8_NjBPjNsH_B5DOAKlXnfxaeS6fWSbWAUnyDw_ewTFKgM7rMNQw5f3MZBkT rQrxsoJx4W40xMyz4hcCKyxbuQ.SbztlLgijhgglT1RgqTeJFJnFL_wzyHgJWM7pzU7zuPFyg1Ut uFEbdqQYLXS_7JDI9Qj0cNF3splL7f40LqrY7iAZD35X8Z2k5sMSOHwSuwnIPPhE7eXSyjvmxASe tLfp3TdKfz4bltQY4OcXOSJ233St6URQbgRdETV3ikc.p8DxUzCuXxzzHxkYweS29QaHEgzibrbi XaheLStXbDn4MqcOagXjSetG8AxllYZgqQKDaX39Wg.AyXQDQktipc_DIbFGrwmggfl4HkK_PWb. mFSvTpbvW8kPPZlZx8Cq9xrcq3vONzHmYMxk.v_7xXOP_s0Z4__2D9xMb_u5_3BPd4pgc.d7YWZs khakBiKbn3lqepBKzvS.mb9BuY7JJu2iQUGtywzjp9xrlyN5_KwDNpZZpnH5JdxMbHFPDa6bu_u6 tM4D_CpiuzkFyMI5jv9ejq.MfET3DeBHsf6Vhsvj.r_wMyhE8Hy2C5GnlwZjcZ5cMWw1vD9IGlx5 BlkwSTPpY0d0GQRhXRVtPG6HPwYD42F7tiGCThsbYImRtIcoD9Svn81SQWUeXVCgDJFD1beLVRnd DuYCCnroAdAnKmxo.03qy2Pxmzh_pmnGfFIiJYdSgW Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic315.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 09:33:10 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp423.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 95d30bba323533a028b3d3c3713b653a; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 09:33:08 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <83zh5vedm8.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16583 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.7) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=74.6.134.125; envelope-from=spacibba@aol.com; helo=sonic315-15.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/12 05:33:10 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255283 Archived-At: On September 12, 2020 8:02:55 AM GMT+02:00, Eli Zaretskii = wrote: >> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 21:48:52 +0200 >> From: Ergus >> Cc: Gregory Heytings , casouri@gmail=2Ecom, >emacs-devel@gnu=2Eorg >>=20 >> >But if you think such "3-minute users" need a document to get them >> >started, by all means, write such a document=2E It is not what the >> >tutorial attempts to do, though=2E >> > >>=20 >> Lets say that the problem is the unfamiliar way how emacs work in >some >> aspects=2E > >Like what? please be more specific, otherwise it's very hard to >understand what you have in mind=2E > Like right click panel and cua=2E I don't like any of those, but my point = is that in 3 minutes is hard to face that none of them are there as expecte= d=2E >> In this list is repeated constantly that we shouldn't do this >> or that; or use a such set of bindings, colors, or methods just >because >> the other editors do=2E So the only way to keep that is enforcing a >> learning curve because very little users will arrive trained in "the >> emacs way"=2E > >Once again: most basic things people expect from an editor "just work" >in Emacs OOTB=2E > >> If a user opens any editor around he never looks into the menus for >copy >> or paste, but just right-click and a panel or C-c and C-v as they are >> standard anywhere else=2E > >So this is about CUA-like key bindings? I just said explicitly that I don't like Cua mode=2E Even when M-w and the= others are not really better IMO=2E > or is there anything else? The very usefull right click panel=2E > >> I don't like to enable CUA mode by default, but start emacs and work >is >> not so easy so if a user only have 3 minutes to start he will open >> gedit, kwire, kate or geany and everything works as expected in those >3 >> minutes=2E > >Fine, then I guess this is what the "3-minute tutorial" should say=2E > IMO we should focus in at least 5-10 minutes users more than 3 minutes one= s=2E Because to focus in the 3 minutes ones emacs will require at least a p= ermanent visible bindings bar somewhere (like nano) or change many things t= o make them familiar for external users=2E And we won't do that I think :/ >> >> You mention "doc strings", but why on earth would a user who just >started >> >> using Emacs read doc strings? >> > >> >To learn more about Emacs, of course=2E >> > >>=20 >> I said that, 5-10 minutes is a bit better than 3=2E IMO the Mike's >videos >> are the perfect format=2E Maybe the only problem is the emacs window >size >> on the screen and that they are more oriented to the external >packages >> than in the internals=2E > >To have video tutorials for these purposes is perfectly okay=2E I hope >we will be able to have them soon=2E > >Thanks=2E Have you seen any of the mike's videos? IMO they are already useful for ne= w users=2E Let's hope he port them to peertube=2E --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E