From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Why are and not called and ? Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:00:48 -0700 Message-ID: References: <44F75524.60907@student.lu.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1157061704 6518 80.91.229.2 (31 Aug 2006 22:01:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:01:44 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 01 00:01:40 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GIub3-0007qW-TF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 00:01:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GIub3-0005nT-Gx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:01:13 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1GIuap-0005lb-Fn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:00:59 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1GIuao-0005ke-5W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:00:58 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GIuan-0005kb-VA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:00:57 -0400 Original-Received: from [148.87.113.118] (helo=rgminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1GIukV-0005TA-Lq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:10:59 -0400 Original-Received: from rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (rgmgw1.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.110]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id k7VM0tSH031589 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:00:55 -0600 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dradams-lap.us.oracle.com [130.35.177.126]) by rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with SMTP id k7VM0sBF028846 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:00:55 -0600 Original-To: "Emacs Devel" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <44F75524.60907@student.lu.se> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 Importance: Normal X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:59182 Archived-At: > > and are standard names, which means that users > > can find things out about them (e.g. Google). > > Are you seriously saying that it is more simple to find > something about > the usage of these keys if you use "next" than "page down"? > > Well, I don't know whether it is easier to search for one or > the other. The point is that one is a standard name, so _if_ > you can find doc on it then you have found doc about many things > (e.g. apps) involving that key. Can you please explain what standard you refer to? Didn't Stefan mention X11? > And? Most users don't know that the `left' key is the > left-arrow either. Should we call it `<-'? Are they not mostly called "left arrow" etc? Talking about them together as just "up, down, left, right" makes it rather easy to understand I guess. At least that was the case for me. And yet you had trouble getting from Page Down to Next? Between the downward-pointing arrow (no label mentioning "down") and Page Down, you guessed that the former was the same as the `down' key, and not the latter? Good guess ;-). > With your argument, we would not distinguish numeric keypad > keys from the identically labeled keys on the main keyboard pad. The > keyboard labels only get you so far; they don't get you to any > technical info on the key definitions (standard), and they aren't > even sufficient to uniquely identify keys. Good point, but maybe stretched to far. Of course we should be clear enough. To be clear, we need to give them unique names. And since they already have unique names, from the standard, why not use those? And, then, why use those standard names in some cases but not in others? > And what about all the variants of the TAB key (ISO this and > that, vs C-i, etc.)? In terms of key labels, they might all > be labeled "Tab", but Emacs users must sometimes distinguish them. Are you not mixing different levels here? Can't we be clear enough by just talking about the physical keyboard? It's the signal sent by the physical key that's important, no? How can you even tell if your keyboard has an `prior' key - do you just look for a Page Up label? That might not be sufficient, depending on what that key is mapped to. I'm no expert on keys. It just seems to me that the proper response to this issue is to document that the abstract keys `next' and `prior' are sometimes labeled Page Down and Page Up on keyboards, and not to rename the abstract keys to "Page Down" and "Page Up".