From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 21:37:26 -0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153197546 20126 80.91.229.2 (18 Jul 2006 04:39:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 04:39:06 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 18 06:39:04 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2hMN-0002f5-Rj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 06:39:04 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2hMN-0005FA-At for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 00:39:03 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2hLa-0004y4-CR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 00:38:14 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2hLY-0004vy-Ew for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 00:38:13 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2hLX-0004vZ-VP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 00:38:12 -0400 Original-Received: from [148.87.113.118] (helo=rgminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1G2hOM-0005DS-70 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 00:41:06 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsmt251.oracle.com (rcsmt251.oracle.com [148.87.90.196]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id k6I4c984027234 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 22:38:09 -0600 Original-Received: from dhcp-amer-whq-csvpn-gw3-141-144-80-94.vpn.oracle.com by rcsmt250.oracle.com with ESMTP id 1578889371153197447; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 22:37:27 -0600 Original-To: "Emacs-Devel" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57241 Archived-At: > Key bindings *are* shortcuts - what's wrong with that? 1) They are > commonly called "keyboard shortcuts" by many people. 2) They are > shorter (quicker) to use than clicking menus and links with a mouse - > don't you agree? They are shorter (quicker) than using `M-x' - don't > you agree? What is it about "shortcut" that sets you off? It's a loaded term -- it implies that they are a "quick _alternative_" to some other primary, more "proper," method of invoking the command. "Quick alternative" doesn't sound bad or loaded to me. Is "quick" bad (quicky, perhaps)? Do you think "alternative" is loaded? Is an alternative something inferior, or superior, or nasty for you? Is the problem that "shortcut" is inferior and naughty or superior and haughty? This really seems to be getting silly. I feel like I must not be in Kansas anymore... [Surely you knew that... it's hardly a new topic in Emacs mailing lists...] Knew what? That keyboard shortcuts are quick alternatives to actions that take longer? Yes; I knew that. That "keyboard shortcut" is a loaded term? No; I did not know that, and I still don't know it. Do you know that? And no, this is the first time I've fallen into the keyboard-shortcut bear trap and been surrounded by angry spears. I've been reading this list for a couple of years, but this reaction was a surprise to me. Learn something new about those who inhabit the list every day... I think the term "shortcut", while common among the GUI set, actually does do some harm by subtly encouraging people to think of menus as the "standard" way of doing things. For that reason, it really should only be used in applications where that is indeed true, not in applications like Emacs where it is most certainly not true. Why do you say "menus"? I didn't. I mentioned menus and links and "using `M-x'". I don't think of key bindings as shortcuts for just menu access. In Emacs, they are shortcuts for commands, whether `M-x ' or menu access or even macro execution. They are, in fact, "keyboard shortcuts" for longer ways of doing things. I don't think of menus or link clicks or `M-x...' as being more or less "proper" or "naughty" than key sequences. Honestly, that dimension is not even on my moral map. I just don't worry about that at all, least of all ethically. What could be clearer than the term "keyboard shortcut" for a keyboard action that is quicker than doing something else? In fact, now that I think of it, although "key binding" and "key sequence" are more precise terms _for Emacs_ (because key sequences are bound to commands and macros in Emacs), in general (that is, not just in Emacs), the better term is probably "keyboard shortcut", because such a beast could presumably be short for anything - any action that's, well, longer, and, outside Emacs, there is not necessarily a notion of "binding" the shortcuts.