From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Info tutorial is out of date; mouse usage Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 14:13:39 -0700 Message-ID: References: <85hd1h2t1c.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153084496 24464 80.91.229.2 (16 Jul 2006 21:14:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 21:14:56 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 16 23:14:56 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2Dx0-0002Cn-Q0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 23:14:55 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2Dx0-0005al-0Z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 17:14:54 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2Dwl-0005ZR-AK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 17:14:39 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2Dwi-0005WC-SC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 17:14:39 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2Dwi-0005W1-FW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 17:14:36 -0400 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.228] (helo=agminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1G2DzE-0002Ct-Jn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 17:17:12 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsmt250.oracle.com (rcsmt250.oracle.com [148.87.90.195]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k6G8RQv8013256 for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 16:14:34 -0500 Original-Received: from dhcp-amer-csvpn-gw1-141-144-64-45.vpn.oracle.com by rcsmt250.oracle.com with ESMTP id 1574838221153084432; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 15:13:52 -0600 Original-To: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <85hd1h2t1c.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57123 Archived-At: > I'd like to speak out for the mute majority and Drew Adams. I don't get your point. You present the mouse as a crutch when people refuse to learn a more direct way. But the purpose of a tutorial is not to make people rely on crutches. The visual aids for mouse usage are available anyway: we don't need to teach people how to use them. No one has proposed teaching people how to use the mouse to navigate etc. We do not *need* to *teach* that - it's *obvious*, immediate, apparent, QED, CQFD. Even the blind can tell that a `Next' button is there. You said it: "The visual aids for mouse usage are available anyway." The same is not true of `n', `m', etc. - those are not obvious. However, users need *not* use those shortcuts at all to learn how to use Info and what features Info offers. And they can still see that those shortcuts are available by looking 1) in the menu-bar Info menu or 2) in the `h' keybindings list that I proposed. No need to use `n', and no need to teach `n'. The reason for taking a tour of the menu bar is not to teach how to use the menu bar to do things; it is to teach the real content of Info; it is to *get to* that content as quickly as possible, without teaching any navigational preliminaries. If you want, instead, to take the tour of important Info functionalities by using `h' (the version I proposed: just a list of key bindings with one-line descriptions), that's OK with me too. The point is to get to the important stuff first, and not teach `n', `p', `u', etc. So, have the tutorial teach `h' first (the bindings list) if you like, and then use that to explore `i', `s', `g', `l', SPC, DEL, and so on. I don't care about the menubar and the mouse - it's about the *functionalities*. What requires teaching with regard to a mouse is not how to press labelled buttons. Things like marking regions, dragging, cutting, using scrollbars and so on: those are mouse functionality that requires teaching. Pressing labelled buttons doesn't, except for buttons with incomprehensible labels. I would consider it ok to mention the toolbar buttons (which are just labelled with graphical stuff) in a tutorial, and it would actually be a good idea to show them as pictograms (info can do graphics, can't it?) when doing so. Again, there is no need to teach use of the mouse in the Info tutorial. Or the toolbar. Or the menubar. Those are all obvious. Teaching use of the mouse functionalities that you propose (selection, etc.) could be useful, but not as part of the *Info* tutorial - it has nothing to do with Info. But I don't see the point in mentioning that clicking an a "Next" line will change to the next node. And in particular I don't see the point in omitting to mention the keyboard command for it. Absolutely no one has proposed that kind of thing - never, no how, no way, no sir; so please stop imagining that boogey man. The point is, on the contrary, to get rid of teaching how to navigate structural links. And no one has ever proposed omitting mention of keyboard shortcuts for operations carried out, for example, by mouse. Please reread the posts. In fact, for all I care, you could even rename Next, etc. links to include their shortcuts, like we do in the menu: Next (`n'): Foo Bar. I'm *not* proposing that, but I wouldn't object strongly. We should not have to teach `n' (or `Next'), IMO.