From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 16:01:16 -0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153177478 6132 80.91.229.2 (17 Jul 2006 23:04:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 23:04:38 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 18 01:04:36 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2c8f-0000Zm-P1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 01:04:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2c8f-0004MQ-AT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 19:04:33 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2c7O-0003U5-8n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 19:03:14 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2c7L-0003So-Pj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 19:03:13 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2c7L-0003Si-LO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 19:03:11 -0400 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.228] (helo=agminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1G2cA6-0001V3-K2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 19:06:02 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsmt251.oracle.com (rcsmt251.oracle.com [148.87.90.196]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k6HBQCDw032364 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 18:03:09 -0500 Original-Received: from dradams-lap.us.oracle.com by rcsmt250.oracle.com with ESMTP id 1576283661153177278; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 17:01:18 -0600 Original-To: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57220 Archived-At: > Emacs Info is too close to the standalone Info to justify two > separate manuals > > Today. But that closeness is artificial. No, it's deliberate: the Founding Fathers wanted to make sure it would be possible to learn _an_ Info reader and use any of these two based on that knowledge. But you pointed out things that go against that aim of the FFs, and you pointed out that because of those things there are (already) two manuals. > I see no reason why we can't have two versions of the tutorial. One reason is that it's not easy to present the right one to the user based on her reader. Remember: learning Info is a bootstrap-kind of problem--you learn to use a tool by using that same tool. If we don't make the beginning of the bootstrap 110% reliable (which includes showing the right manual), the results will be catastrophic. So, how do you deal with that problem currently, since there are apparently already two manuals? Somehow, you are able to tell, and to give the standalone-reader reader the standalone-only manual. Your bootstrap doesn't need to teach anything about `n' and `p', does it? This is all very abstract. Why don't you show us something concrete that presents a real obstacle to doing things the right way?