From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: [drew.adams@oracle.com: RE: cannot find :enable in Elisp manualindex] Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 14:03:10 -0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1180472676 15503 80.91.229.12 (29 May 2007 21:04:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 21:04:36 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Eli Zaretskii" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue May 29 23:04:34 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Ht8ro-0003b7-JO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 May 2007 23:04:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ht8ro-0000Mi-7M for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 May 2007 17:04:32 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Ht8r0-0007oX-In for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 29 May 2007 17:03:42 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Ht8qz-0007me-No for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 29 May 2007 17:03:42 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ht8qy-0007mI-Hb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 29 May 2007 17:03:40 -0400 Original-Received: from rgminet01.oracle.com ([148.87.113.118]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Ht8qv-000532-GV; Tue, 29 May 2007 17:03:37 -0400 Original-Received: from rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (rgmgw1.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.110]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id l4TL3XcO001750; Tue, 29 May 2007 15:03:33 -0600 Original-Received: from acsmt350.oracle.com (acsmt350.oracle.com [141.146.40.150]) by rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id l4TKQM4q002378; Tue, 29 May 2007 15:03:32 -0600 Original-Received: from dhcp-4op11-4op12-west-130-35-178-179.us.oracle.com by acsmt351.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2740589231180472591; Tue, 29 May 2007 14:03:11 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-detected-kernel: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:71963 Archived-At: > > That's really too bad, if it's the case. Keywords are important > > things to put in an index (not to mention the fact that some > > languages to be documented might use colons in special ways). > > If this is really not feasible, then users are reduced to > > using search in Info to find a keyword > > such as :type, :display, or :enable - pretty primitive > > Actually, I don't think it's so bad as you make it sound -- in the > case of Emacs Lisp (as opposed to, for example, C++), because I really > doubt that many people would use `:foo' instead of `foo' to look for > the keywords. After all, the colon is similar to the quote ' in Emacs > Lisp, and you aren't going to lobby for indexing 'keymap or > 'wrong-number-of-arguments, would you? Nonsense. 1) Info is not just for Emacs and Emacs Lisp. 2) Looking up ":type" as opposed to "type" is in no way analogous to looking up "'keymap" as opposed to "keymap". I can't believe that you would suggest such a thing. > > (but still far better than visiting the many "type", > > "display", "enable" etc. index entries). > > Please suggest how to qualify the index entries for the keywords that > use such common words, so that they would clearly stand out in the > list popped by TAB-completion. I don't understand the request. I see no problem with showing ":type" in *Completions*. Please explain. You should be able to type ":type" (without the quotes) at the `Info-index' prompt, and have it take you to a node that discusses :type. > > Is there no way to escape a colon somehow, so that Info does > > not interpret it? > > Sadly, no. Dommage. That would be a useful enhancement. > > I haven't used TeX/LaTeX/Texinfo for 20 years, but my memory of > > LaTeX and Tex, at least, is of something very powerful and > > flexible. > > TeX and LaTeX are powerful, but Texinfo is implemented by a very > simple one-pass processor and a bunch of TeX macros, so it doesn't > have a power that is anywhere near that. > > > Suggestion: If a user enters a colon at the `Info-index' prompt, > > print a message saying 1) that the colon is being ignored, and > > 2) you can, as an alternative, use search (`s' or `C-s') to > > search the manual for a term that contains a colon. > > I think index search is so much more powerful that `s', even with the > colon problem, that it's not a good idea to suggest `s'. 1: I agree with you 100% about the relative utility of `i' over `s' - in general. 2: I disagree with you 100% in the case of keywords. Try it. Pick one and count how many keystrokes or whatever it takes to get you to a node that actually discusses that keyword using both `i' and `s'. The latter wins hands down. With `i :link', you have to visit 17 index entries out of 20 before you get to a node containing :link. But `s' with `:link' takes you immediately to a node discussing :link - in fact, of course, all hits of `s :link' discuss :link. Similarly for other keywords: With :tag you must visit 6 out of 6 `tag' entries to finally get to :tag; with :group 4/11; :load 19/42; :require 4/5; :version 24/30. Neither `i :enable' nor `i :keymap' in the Elisp manual will _ever_ get you to a page with that keyword - they're not indexed at all. Of course, to find that out for :keymap, say, you will need to visit all 45 entries and check for ":keymap" in each one! It's hard to imagine why you would "think index search is so much more powerful that `s', _even with the colon problem_." Maybe we have different ideas of "powerful". #1 + #2: That's why I wrote: "users are reduced to using search in Info to find a keyword". "Reduced to" in the sense of limited functionality, because `i' is usually much better than `s' (when there is an appropriate index entry). "Reduced to" also in the sense of forced to, because `s' is better than `i' for keywords (sadly).