From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 09:54:09 -0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153155304 26472 80.91.229.2 (17 Jul 2006 16:55:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 16:55:04 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 17 18:55:03 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2WMl-00045T-O9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 18:54:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2WMl-0008S4-Bg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:54:43 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2WMZ-0008Px-5M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:54:31 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2WMY-0008PJ-Jr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:54:30 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2WMY-0008P6-FU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:54:30 -0400 Original-Received: from [148.87.113.118] (helo=rgminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1G2WPF-0004ZQ-Rq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:57:18 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsmt251.oracle.com (rcsmt251.oracle.com [148.87.90.196]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id k6HBQBlY002515 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 10:54:28 -0600 Original-Received: from dradams-lap.us.oracle.com by rcsmt250.oracle.com with ESMTP id 1576490421153155249; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 10:54:09 -0600 Original-To: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57199 Archived-At: > Of course, it must tell people how to use the standalone Info reader Only the bare basics, because the more advanced features of the stand-alone Info reader are documented in a separate manual, which describes the stand-alone reader, and it alone. If there is a separate standalone-reader manual, then stuff that is specific to the standalone reader should go in that manual. That dissolves the argument that the Info manual itself must cater to people who use only the standalone reader. > Emacs Info is too close to the standalone Info to justify two > separate manuals, especially since many people may want to learn how > to use both readers and we should not force them to read two manuals > most of whose contents just duplicate each other. 100% agreement. But you just acknowledged that there are already two manuals. Wrt duplication: Surely we can DTRT, so there is no duplication. That is a packaging problem, and it shouldn't affect what we decide should logically go in each manual (and the order for each). > The Info reader has no menu bar and no Emacs style header line. > Scroll bars and mice do not seem to work with it. The current Info manual tries (sometimes very hard) to strike the right balance between the handy GUI features available in Emacs and the total lack thereof in the stand-alone reader. Keyboard-only stuff could be presented at the start of the standalone-reader manual, and presented in a later part of the Info manual. The standalone manual could be built to not include that information twice. The presentation in each case would likely be slightly different: For Emacs users, keyboard shortcuts would be presented as a performance-enhancement tip. For standalone Info, they would be presented at the beginning, as a prerequisite lesson. This could be done by single-sourcing, while still sharing much of the content. Yes, as Lennart pointed out, making things easier for the user sometimes means more work for the preparer. It is quite possible that the manual can be improved, but I'd rather see a concrete proposal (in the form of patches or even a total rewrite) than hear more of the endless discussions in this thread about the relative merits and demerits of using the mouse and the tool bar. I agree. A discussion on what needs to be taught, in what priority, is the first step. I offered some suggestions, as did Alan. And on that we are not so far apart. Would someone who thinks they know how to make the Info manual less ``out of date'' please submit their proposed changes, so we could make this discussion more practical? I personally cannot contribute patches (they would not be accepted, because I cannot get papers from my employer). In any case, starting with patches would be premature. Let us agree on what to present and how, before getting into the exact text.