From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: guided tour suggestions Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 15:08:12 -0700 Message-ID: References: <87k5umdqos.fsf@stupidchicken.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1180822128 14079 80.91.229.12 (2 Jun 2007 22:08:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 22:08:48 +0000 (UTC) To: Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 03 00:08:47 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Hubm4-0006LL-Il for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 03 Jun 2007 00:08:40 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hubm3-0005ok-MH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:08:39 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Hubm0-0005k0-60 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:08:36 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Hublz-0005jK-Ix for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:08:35 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hublz-0005j5-BS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:08:35 -0400 Original-Received: from agminet01.oracle.com ([141.146.126.228]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Hubly-0002X6-PK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:08:35 -0400 Original-Received: from rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (rgmgw1.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.110]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id l52M8UjP019997 for ; Sat, 2 Jun 2007 17:08:30 -0500 Original-Received: from acsmt351.oracle.com (acsmt351.oracle.com [141.146.40.151]) by rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id l52M6Sj2007974 for ; Sat, 2 Jun 2007 16:08:30 -0600 Original-Received: from dhcp-amer-csvpn-gw2-141-144-73-152.vpn.oracle.com by acsmt350.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2770087261180822102; Sat, 02 Jun 2007 15:08:22 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <87k5umdqos.fsf@stupidchicken.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-detected-kernel: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:72075 Archived-At: > 0. Am I the only one that thinks the parts of the text in are too > small to be legible? Or are my Firefox fonts screwed up? They look OK for me, in IE6.0. > 1. The screenshots on http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/ are too > zoomed out to be legible. I guess the reason for this is so that > the entire Emacs window can be displayed. I think it would be > better if the screenshot images on the main page of the tour are at > 100% zoom, and cropped so that only the relevant part of the window > is seen. When you click on each image, it should bring you to a > bigger imager showing the entire Emacs window. Generally agree. However, showing full-size screenshots takes a lot more screen space and so interrupts the reading flow. Show at least some of the screenshots (e.g. ediff, mail) reduced and uncropped, when it is important to give an idea of the entire layout (but still let you click to get full-size). * No need for a screenshot to show the grocery list; just print the list. * The code screenshot should show a language that Emacs newbies might be familiar with, instead of Emacs Lisp - e.g. C++, Java. * There could be a *grep* or *compilation* screenshot, perhaps showing another window with found source code. * There could be a screenshot showing incremental search. It should be repeated in the search section. * The ediff screenshot is very good, but the tiny Ediff frame should be moved from in front of the other frame, so you can tell it is a frame. * The dired screenshot could be better, perhaps showing code files in a project, with an inserted subdir, some marked files, and an interaction in the minibuffer. * There could be a screenshot showing Help or Info in use. * The shell screenshot could lose the quotation - it's confusing here. * The email screenshot could be better chosen, perhaps. * I would lose the tetris screenshot. If the point is to show that Emacs has play activities too, I'd skip this shot. Compared to play things available elsewhere, this is not very convincing. Better to show a good conversation with the shrink. I'd skip this stuff altogether, personally. * Put the hexl screenshot last, if at all. > 5. In the section on Macros, I think we should recommend the F3 and F4 > keys new to Emacs 22, since they are easier to use than the old > kmacro keys. No real opinion on that, except that some keyboards don't have function keys, and some people never leave the home keys. I don't know if there is a general policy on this. The section should be called "Keyboard Macros" (or "Recording Interactions" or some such), however, not Macros. > Also, I wonder if the tour should mention transient mark mode. Now > that font-lock-mode is on by default, transient mark mode is IMHO the > reigning champion for Feature That Should Be Turned On By Default But > Isn't. I agree. In fact, I vote for turning on delete-selection-mode by default. However, since it's not on by default, I don't think the tour should mention it. If it were on, I'd prefer that we present the region in the tour in d-s-m terms (simple) - helas. Delete selection mode is closer to what most newbies will be familiar with (besides being better for everyone ;-)). BTW, wrt "the constant interference of unintended active regions with both buffer display and operation" (David), I've never found it to interfere with anything I do in Emacs. Anyway, we don't want to open that hornet's nest this time around. Just chalk me up as one more vote in favor of d-s-m, but not in favor of mentioning it in the tour, because you have to turn it on. I haven't had a chance to read the tour yet (!); I just took a quick look at the sections Chong referred to and skimmed some more. Looks generally good so far. The order seems a bit weird: It seems odd to tour tramp, server, and registers before "Common Emacs concepts" such as prefix args, modes, and minibuffer, for instance. I would say users should tour "Learning about Emacs" near the beginning (and not call it Learning _more_ about Emacs) - teaching how to learn is one of the first things to get across, not the last. I'm not sure what I think about the presentation of Undo. It is generally clear, but it looks a bit intimidating because of the diagrams. If we keep the diagrams, perhaps add a diagram showing Emacs undo that corresponds to the first two diagrams. We don't see Emacs undo until the discussion of accessing the past after performing a non-undo/redo action. That is, we only see an Emacs undo chain that corresponds to the 3rd diagram. I know that some people have found Emacs's undo disconcerting, but I've never found it anything but intuitive, from the beginning. Cell diagrams seem complicated for presenting this, to me. I feel ambivalent about the diagrams, actually. If you trace them through carefully, I suppose they can help, but I think it's a lot easier to get a mental model of Emacs undo by just trying it. It might be useful to state that, unlike other editors, you can, in effect, undo past undo actions (without going into detail trying to describe exactly what that means). "Useful features" is a catch-all category. It's content needs to be moved (restructure). For example, move keyboard macros to the editing section. What feature is not useful? "Useful features" even includes phases-of-the-moon, which is hardly an example of "Integration with common tools". No need to mention such stuff, IMO; users will appreciate it more when they find it, as an "extra" (a la easter egg). The region is not presented as such in a dedicated section (the closest thing is the Mark section) - it is mentioned here and there. Narrowing should be presented with the region. We might want to mention the mouse in connection with the region, as Emacs' mouse is enhanced wrt what people are used to elsewhere. Might, might not. We might mention more about Emacs's features for editing code. Things such as indentation that we take for granted, for instance. HTH. Thanks for this tour; it should help new users.