From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 09:37:58 -0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153154422 23152 80.91.229.2 (17 Jul 2006 16:40:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 16:40:22 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 17 18:40:18 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2W8k-0001K1-27 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 18:40:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2W8j-0004zH-Iq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:40:13 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2W6q-0003yx-Ar for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:38:16 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2W6m-0003wV-Dt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:38:14 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2W6m-0003wH-2o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:38:12 -0400 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.228] (helo=agminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1G2W9T-0003L1-Bx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:40:59 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsmt251.oracle.com (rcsmt251.oracle.com [148.87.90.196]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k6GJq0Ug021621 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 11:38:10 -0500 Original-Received: from dradams-lap.us.oracle.com by rcsmt251.oracle.com with ESMTP id 1573570901153154279; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 10:37:59 -0600 Original-To: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57197 Archived-At: It's not primary about technologically or physically disabled people, or about some stubborn mouse-haters -- it's about teaching beginners how to use emacs (or in this case info) in an efficient way. It's true, that most beginners nowadays know how to use a mouse, and it might be also true, that most of them expect things to work by pointing and clicking, _but_ that's not what we should teach them, because it's not the best (fastest, efficient, most flexible) way to do it. I think everyone agrees that: 1. We should not teach users how to use the mouse to navigate. 2. We should not teach users that using the mouse is the best way to go. 3. We should tell users that using the keyboard is quicker than using the mouse. The question is whether the tutorial should start by teaching you how to navigate with the keyboard. Emacs is a very powerful tool (as we all know), enabling new users to experience this power IMO means to teach them how to do it the best way from the beginning. What's "the beginning"? Unlike the jesuits, we don't get most new users "from the beginning", unfortunately. The question is whether it is more important to start the Info tutorial with Info features, or start it with a tutorial on navigating the Info structure with the keyboard. That's the issue we're debating, so far (hopefully, we'll eventually move on to discuss what are the important Info features, and how best to present them). To me, structural navigation is not the goal; it is a means to achieve the goal, which is getting info from a manual (whether quick look-up or front-to-back reading). The question is whether or not teaching structural navigation is a prerequisite to teaching Info features. If not, it can be taught afterward, if it is taught at all. I claim that it is not a prerequisite for the vast majority of newbies, because they can navigate using the mouse (which they are used to and comfortable with). Structural navigation needs no teaching - it's obvious. Since it is not a prerequisite to teach structural navigation, and it is not the goal, let's relegate it to the end of the tutorial, as a Performance Enhancement lesson. Though it's not needed to access information, it is useful, so let's include it, but not at the start. Learning something new is always harder than sticking with old habits, but it can be very enlightening, too. :-) The "something new" that we really want to teach in the Info tutorial is how to get to information that is in the manual; it is not teaching people that the keyboard is better than the mouse.