From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Summer Emacs Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: "About Emacs" page Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2024 12:19:53 +0200 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3818.100.11.1.3\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="11259"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 19 12:21:06 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1srEHa-0002jE-24 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 19 Sep 2024 12:21:06 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1srEGl-0001Zo-P0; Thu, 19 Sep 2024 06:20:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1srEGj-0001ZY-Dg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Sep 2024 06:20:13 -0400 Original-Received: from st43p00im-ztbu10073701.me.com ([17.58.63.183]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1srEGg-00047a-Jl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Sep 2024 06:20:12 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=summerstar.me; s=sig1; t=1726741208; bh=pr3FUSFt7/Tc1QEbaoWHI9cnYSrE49IZVvQDdW+YYM8=; h=From:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Message-Id:Date:To; b=de7JTDTQIQ0rHwi4G95Y58OB/sFvcQP9IEB6VwU0zoypERryN9AGxX9qc+emV98qo yAsMYzr3PZOszOFWV0FnncbUfxrKCD8mYHDZ7hCWxIBbrfzbQin7IUckLcftSGsNdk Z9UOK/TSPtbfg0V69NoWenlf3XEHuyDDuDAri+xDidK6W+EVqlANiCJv3rf/ZDJymG NmjR6znqAEFK1SbQfxbfL8pJLAQaRIQ+U2wUyuEjlc6cuFfqNvTrXSNMlcR11gO98h zXxw5qe8jnY8/DIEwi3VKvvJ3YlLmvJRSTIoKQqvgZJH+aMegY2b4cmVaFRIGx4GNF VNP36SGvFVuCQ== Original-Received: from smtpclient.apple (st43p00im-dlb-asmtp-mailmevip.me.com [17.42.251.41]) by st43p00im-ztbu10073701.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B8BA21C01CA for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2024 10:20:06 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3818.100.11.1.3) X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: _Z2iUph1SlKx0nVfvQ9c7BNyFG7adLXF X-Proofpoint-GUID: _Z2iUph1SlKx0nVfvQ9c7BNyFG7adLXF X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.272,Aquarius:18.0.1051,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.60.29 definitions=2024-09-19_07,2024-09-18_01,2024-09-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 clxscore=1030 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.19.0-2308100000 definitions=main-2409190066 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=17.58.63.183; envelope-from=summeremacs@summerstar.me; helo=st43p00im-ztbu10073701.me.com X-Spam_score_int: -37 X-Spam_score: -3.8 X-Spam_bar: --- X-Spam_report: (-3.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-1.047, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:323767 Archived-At: Hi again, I=E2=80=99m starting a new thread because it=E2=80=99s a different = topic. It ties in to my Newbie project, but it=E2=80=99s separate so I = don=E2=80=99t want to confuse the two. Okay, I=E2=80=99m going to detail here what I think about the =E2=80=9CAbo= ut Emacs=E2=80=9D page (C-h C-a) which everyone first sees when they = boot up Emacs for the first time. This isn=E2=80=99t about my project in = particular, but I think it will zoom out a bit and show people how I see = it (if anyone is interested - feel free to skip this all if it doesn=E2=80= =99t interest you at all): When you first start up Emacs for the first time, you get to the page = =E2=80=9CAbout Emacs=E2=80=9D (C-h C-a). =46rom there, you have links to = (in sequential order): Authors Contributing GNU and Freedom Absence of Warranty Copying Conditions Getting New Versions Ordering Manuals Emacs Tutorial Emacs Guided Tour Emacs Manual Breakdown: Okay. This is literally the first thing a new user sees (as far as I can = remember) when they start up Emacs. It=E2=80=99s good we have a landing = page, but let=E2=80=99s look at how it=E2=80=99s ordered for a = completely new user: 1) Authors/Contributing - this is great. I approve and I think having = links to that is important to recognise the huge task people do for the = project. However, most new users aren=E2=80=99t going to be clicking on = that right away as they still don=E2=80=99t know anything about Emacs. = That would, imho, go towards the bottom of this important list. 2) GNU and Freedom - There=E2=80=99s a philosophy here about Emacs, I = recognise that, but is it really what most people want to read about = when they first open up Emacs? I actually found it to be an interesting = read and I can go into my views if anyone wants to ask, but I=E2=80=99m = not really here to discuss philosophy straight away - I=E2=80=99m here = to write in Emacs, save my writing, and publish or do anything else I = want to do. Getting into the philosophy of Emacs might be important (I = think it is at times), but it=E2=80=99s not foremost on people=E2=80=99s = minds when they first open Emacs. 3) Absence of Warranty - Okay. Legal. Important to understand but..a = little scary. If you=E2=80=99re trying a new product, you don=E2=80=99t = want one of the FIRST things you see to say =E2=80=9Cuse at your own = risk=E2=80=9D. That might be an important piece of info, but we=E2=80=99re= not trying to tell them that Emacs is risky when they first open it up. = Let=E2=80=99s put that at the bottom. Let=E2=80=99s orient them before = we warn them about anything and explain the warning. People tend to read = the first line and go with that and even if you have an explanation = behind the link, they may not read it. So let=E2=80=99s not put that at = the top. 4) Copying Conditions - That=E2=80=99s another great link to have. I = think it=E2=80=99s important to the philosophy and legal stuff of Emacs = but, again, belongs at the bottom with the philosophy/legal stuff. Most = people don=E2=80=99t open up Microsoft Word and click on the legal = stuff. Sure, they *should* at some point (we=E2=80=99re all Emacs users = here after all so we all agree about some things in general), but *do* = they? No. What would be better is to allude to it and introduce them to = some concepts on the go in the new users (newbie) tutorial. 5) Getting New Versions - Good link to have, not so helpful at the top = though. Put it at the bottom below the Emacs philosophy/legal section. 6) Ordering Manuals - This is good! But, it should be under the new = users/Emacs tutorials in the same grouping. It makes sense to put it = there as it=E2=80=99s the same subject. It=E2=80=99ll still be in the = top section that way but grouped better. 7) Emacs Tutorial - That should be right at the top below the new newbie = section which I plan on finishing sometime in the coming weeks. The = newbie section will also have a link to the Emacs tutorial and info = about how to get back to the newbie pages. 8) Emacs Guided Tour - this is, again, is a great section, = however=E2=80=A6it=E2=80=99s confusing to new users (as explained in one = of my last emails). It should be near the bottom of the top section = because it=E2=80=99s not *really* a guided tour. I actually like that it = uses eww as it can introduce a new user to the idea that you can use eww = to read stuff online (which I do sometimes), but again=E2=80=A6just see = what I wrote about it previously. 9) Emacs Manual - Good. I like. In depth, interesting, but very = difficult for a new user to read through. They have to understand the = basics first. I think that should go right under the Emacs tutorial = which would be right under the newbie users section at the top. Okay, so that=E2=80=99s the About Emacs page broken down as I see it. I = hope it doesn=E2=80=99t ruffle too many feathers. Notice: I don=E2=80=99t = want to remove anything from that page. Ideally, add the newbie link at = the top and rearrange a few things. At worst: add the newbie link at the = top. But since I=E2=80=99m analysing this from my perspective, I=E2=80=99ll = give another quick take and I hope I don=E2=80=99t insult anyone here, = this is not my intention please believe me: The logo. Ok. I kinda like the logo, but it=E2=80=99s=E2=80=A6it looks old. It=E2=80= =99s very basic and it has a lot of confusing lines all over the place. = It=E2=80=99s a bit messy, to be honest. What would I replace it with? Well, I favour something like the logos = represented here: https://github.com/egstatsml/emacs_fancy_logos It's still the Emacs logo, but it looks more modern. I=E2=80=99m not = saying we should use *those* in particular, but you can see how it = changes things up a little bit while it keeps the Emacs logo the same = and adds some nicer colours to the whole arrangement. Again: I don=E2=80=99= t want to get rid of the Gnu, I like the Gnu. I think the Gnu is = awesome. I just think some might want to consider using a logo with the = Gnu that is something a bit more=E2=80=A6this century than last. Emacs = isn=E2=80=99t just about the past, it's about the future too. Again: Right now I=E2=80=99m focused on the Newbie project, not the = About Emacs page. But I figured since the link would be there (ideally), = we might want to take a fresh look at that page itself - especially = since I=E2=80=99ve had feedback concerning =E2=80=9Ckeeping up with the = times=E2=80=9D. In summation, the new order would read something like this: Emacs Logo (as usual or changed - either way) =E2=80=94> New Emacs User? Click here. <-- Emacs Tutorial Emacs Manual Emacs Guided Tour Ordering Manuals GNU and Freedom Copying Conditions Getting New Versions Absence of Warranty Authors Contributing Thank you for reading such a long email. Note: I=E2=80=99m super busy every day and even during the evenings and = night. I have a job which involves a lot of social activity at times, so = if you reply to emails in the thread, I will read them - I just won=E2=80=99= t necessarily be able to answer them all. If anyone wants to chat with = me during the day or evenings, I can usually be found in #systemcrafters = or #emacs under the nick SummerEmacs on Libera of course. Summer Emacs =E2=98=80=EF=B8=8F=F0=9F=90=83=20 summeremacs@summerstar.me =E2=80=9CShake it Off =E2=80= =9D - Taylor Swift =F0=9F=92=96