From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: `isearch-allow-scroll' - a misnomer and a bad design Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 12:08:35 -0700 Message-ID: References: <20110909215255.GD2733@acm.acm> <7002A9DA9A804F0B9F6F251FD3A2B263@us.oracle.com> <20110911103940.GA3246@acm.acm> <3C4B7E318EB04AE4B7DB9FD0E4C67629@us.oracle.com> <20110911173012.GA3088@acm.acm> <20110912093651.GA3249@acm.acm> <20110913142732.GB3081@acm.acm> <7E2EE144B11D413583E1E659CDE15186@us.oracle.com> <8739g0vyuy.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E6FF63A.4070604@gmail.com> <2F1337889F394491BA778ACA46799812@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CBAE469E-471A-4132-97D1-3A020ACB29C8" X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1316465270 4484 80.91.229.12 (19 Sep 2011 20:47:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 20:47:50 +0000 (UTC) Cc: juri@jurta.org, acm@muc.de, dan.colascione@gmail.com, Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 19 22:47:43 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R5kkg-0006wO-Rc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 22:47:43 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59487 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R5jCu-0001VF-Mx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:08:44 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59396) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R5jCo-0001Uy-Qb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:08:43 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R5jCk-0002Sy-0W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:08:38 -0400 Original-Received: from dmz-mailsec-scanner-4.mit.edu ([18.9.25.15]:54298) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R5jCe-0002S5-09; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:08:28 -0400 X-AuditID: 1209190f-b7b44ae000000a24-2a-4e77928f7e34 Original-Received: from mailhub-auth-2.mit.edu ( [18.7.62.36]) by dmz-mailsec-scanner-4.mit.edu (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id EF.E9.02596.F82977E4; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:05:51 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH.MIT.EDU [18.7.22.103]) by mailhub-auth-2.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.9.2) with ESMTP id p8JJ8QWr025138; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:08:26 -0400 Original-Received: from [10.0.1.6] (c-67-183-32-38.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [67.183.32.38]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as yandros@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.12.4) with ESMTP id p8JJ8L48019561 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:08:23 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrOKsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUixG6nots/qdzP4P9DGYuGl1IWp+aVWlw+ /IrF4vGCJ6wWO/8dZ7eYsmQruwObx85Zd9k92qaZefz++5DVY/cBV4+PT2+xBLBGcdmkpOZk lqUW6dslcGXcnKJVsFu84tDXBWwNjCeFuxg5OSQETCSev1vODGGLSVy4t56ti5GLQ0hgH6PE /c5/UM4GRomuE9+ZIZwTTBJXn6wBynBwCAs4Slze4gli8goYS7z+xwQyiFkgQWLStz4mkDCb gAzQUA2QMKeAkUTL+mdgu1gEVCXubHgAVV4j8WrTMjCbV8BK4uHEZSwQm/6ySnxf9wKsQUSA X+Lhut+MEIfKSyxu+cw4gVFgFsLmWUg2Q9jyEtvfzmEGKWEW0JGYvJARIqwtsWzha2YY++P5 I0wLGNlWMcqm5Fbp5iZm5hSnJusWJyfm5aUW6Zro5WaW6KWmlG5iBMUJpyT/DsZvB5UOMQpw MCrx8K5sLvMTYk0sK67MPcQoycGkJMr7Y0K5nxBfUn5KZUZicUZ8UWlOavEhRgkOZiUR3tdZ QDnelMTKqtSifJiUNAeLkjhv4w4HPyGB9MSS1OzU1ILUIpisDAeHkgTvAmA6EBIsSk1PrUjL zClBSDNxcIIM5wEaPgukhre4IDG3ODMdIn+KUZdj77bGE4xCLHn5ealS4ry5IEUCIEUZpXlw c2Dp7RWjONBbwrwJIFU8wNQIN+kV0BImoCVlHiUgS0oSEVJSDYz23O2Wc5l3/uDxUb1e4LWi TzLOgs8zZsnWmf/2CUlcWtMzQeN9l/KapY63rsXX/Vleev866zG/s9/qNjgKF5hv X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 18.9.25.15 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:144108 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail=_CBAE469E-471A-4132-97D1-3A020ACB29C8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sep 17, 2011, at 7:52 PM, Richard Stallman wrote: > > I think you've missed the crucial point about special Isearch commands. > > With ordinary Emacs commands, if you don't know about them and you never > use them, they do not affect you. Thus, there is no drawback to having > thousands of them. > > However, when a control character is special in Isearch and you don't > know it, it will bite you. You will type it while in an Isearch, > expecting it to have its usual meaning, and it will do something else > instead. Do you think the usual meaning of C-u is ``exit the modal thing I'm doing now''? The only time I've ever wanted to use C-u in isearch, it either preceded a command that would have exited isearch on its own, or I wanted to isearch for 6 `-'s, and I did not want it to exit isearch (and was confused when it did). I don't see how a ``user expectation'' argument will ever support making C-u exit isearch. If it's just a matter of a learned interaction, that's different. I hope that helps, *Chad --Apple-Mail=_CBAE469E-471A-4132-97D1-3A020ACB29C8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I think you've = missed the crucial point about special Isearch commands.

With = ordinary Emacs commands, if you don't know about them and you = never
use them, they do not affect you.  Thus, there is no = drawback to having
thousands of them.

However, when a control = character is special in Isearch and you don't
know it, it will bite = you.  You will type it while in an Isearch,
expecting it to have = its usual meaning, and it will do something = else
instead.

Do you think = the usual meaning of C-u is ``exit the modal thing = I'm 
doing now''?

The only time = I've ever wanted to use C-u in isearch, it either = preceded 
a command that would have exited isearch on its = own, or I wanted to 
isearch for 6 `-'s, and I did not = want it to exit isearch (and was confused 
when it = did).

I don't see how a ``user expectation'' = argument will ever support making 
C-u exit isearch.  If = it's just a matter of a learned interaction, = that's 
different.

I hope that = helps,
*Chad

= --Apple-Mail=_CBAE469E-471A-4132-97D1-3A020ACB29C8--