From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: JD Smith Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Moving packages out of core to ELPA Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 07:57:00 -0500 Message-ID: References: <86sf1qsxs9.fsf@gnu.org> <86r0has2v3.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.300.61.1.2\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="9925"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 18 13:57:59 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rbgk2-0002N8-NV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 13:57:58 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbgjU-0004aF-Vu; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 07:57:25 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbgjR-0004Ts-N9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 07:57:22 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-oi1-x229.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::229]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbgjM-0003K6-01; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 07:57:18 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-oi1-x229.google.com with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3bbbc6e51d0so1801699b6e.3; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 04:57:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1708261033; x=1708865833; darn=gnu.org; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=AvEnyRh6yXyb3FwZdlG5kiYMOSXek7/4dASxTfKp/Ew=; b=KV+29J/DUwyCXRq3LlViT4PnPFsP+JyhjaP6wnZV1DO7c+I+GO2AYhdj/e7XKnLI6X ezimdiPSnK8SQ9TFvOyb548r2TNzr1tN2J4WxoqsoH5GVDmcQdy/jAm6RwOdMNtmcDGf e3MreDczbto3a0lKzzoi0+UEwoOYuCSFbrnZtfoIbzWf0/tvuroT5BcVqag+3SqopI5K h5BVEQ9fpqAiVZ+o0nhx/h/W4InqKhAG+nHo0JGZA3xEz01xeZTiCt2WWWWtCAp9AQuc QdzOMkLKldQn84R2ZtpuCc6b78B/E7V1obzanKeBq9mYqA/3SkMCrFONbz/TH/Q/N1n0 /RhA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1708261033; x=1708865833; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=AvEnyRh6yXyb3FwZdlG5kiYMOSXek7/4dASxTfKp/Ew=; b=K+m23HJKfSu+J3cjTH3ieF5f0XfWiPUMih04ylxCYGbb19aZddi5/lTv8iq3mcH9i0 diWpPhuYUcRZ58tIAAEj0tWY+ksOKg7MAnWK0rysGqi0bLYhjduuZJ8LsnG8zZ2fSy4I J4aOtpdFOMxtO993nnbf2390IfDSITniW78ytWPx9SU/Nz1a0D+fuzxsBKLAZYvM/Cn7 fG7mT41XLWIuZlz6x1ovkrBHPmsK/U3v7BsMuglv3rhI/4X0KAYLWg41S0ERANlyoyug BBnYhq4OavKu2DohT0NRRjFyM/TKWTCgA8/l3wakZKBsrk+jk6bPPGz3AetKSvrgHAv0 Fydg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzLiQ2DaDzyiSv4FO5whoII+D2it0i+yfAxONkwNPgrMYVnORA7 JhjH7HNnptw6p5BDWRHe/yvv9I134nhxnWEe8yVFK/IR3rpwTrFtXSn/rmxF X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IExWSl2coYqHAW9Apb9L/JQ1y03vZKMoSSeWWrx+p9K/1hZcdsEVXGbV7SY2xdyRyZKVRvsgg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1241:b0:3c0:3966:625b with SMTP id o1-20020a056808124100b003c03966625bmr11360023oiv.30.1708261032944; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 04:57:12 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from smtpclient.apple (cm-24-53-187-34.buckeyecom.net. [24.53.187.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id pd2-20020a056214490200b0068f59567778sm966460qvb.127.2024.02.18.04.57.11 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 18 Feb 2024 04:57:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <86r0has2v3.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.300.61.1.2) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::229; envelope-from=jdtsmith@gmail.com; helo=mail-oi1-x229.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:316305 Archived-At: > On Feb 18, 2024, at 1:28=E2=80=AFAM, Eli Zaretskii = wrote: >=20 >> From: JD Smith >> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 16:16:31 -0500 >> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org >>=20 >>>> Not necessarily, depending on how one defines obsolete. Just =E2=80=9C= no longer worth keeping in core=E2=80=9D. >>>=20 >>> That's not my interpretation of your description of IDL state. >>=20 >> Then I fear you may have misinterpreted me. Many astronomers and = earth scientists do still use it. A few with emacs. Maybe it=E2=80=99s = a bit like Perl that way. There=E2=80=99s a lot of legacy code around. = So it=E2=80=99s perfectly valuable to keep in ELPA, but IMO the = cost/benefit no longer merits inclusion in core. >=20 > Why doesn't the cost/benefit merit inclusion in core? Maybe I should be more specific here: I don't think the cost/benefit = favors having it in the core ready to fire up when any .pro file is = loaded (since there are other unrelated flavors with that file type in = the wild, e.g. Qt config files, which confuses people), or having the = IDLWAVE manual appear at the top level of M-x info (as nice as a manual = it is, and as hard as I worked on it lo those many years ago). > How do you understand the considerations for keeping something in core > in general? When the additional burden of extra information presented to users and = the costs to maintain, update, seek out and correct outdated code is = outweighed by the utility some users gain by having it readily at hand. = A small package that is effectively invisible and never loads unless the = user summons it has fewer costs in this way of looking at it. I do not = suggest that judging this balance is trivial or even straightforward, = but it's my opinion for this particular package, many of whose users I = am well familiar with, the costs outweigh the benefits. I am interested = in how the maintainers proper see the costs of maintenance; maybe I = overestimate those. And I do note there are lots of things under M-x = info that probably don't see much use, so I acknowledge these arguments = could represent a "slippery slope".=