Re: feature request - change modeline "Top L1" to "Top L¹⁄₁₄₁₉"

Re: feature request - change modeline "Top L1" to "Top L¹⁄₁₄₁₉"

[Emanuel Berg]

Van L wrote:

> When opening a file such as src/buffer.h the
> modeline shows ,Top L1, showing ,Top L¹⁄₁₄₁₉,
> saves diving to the Bot for the 100% Lnumber.

You can configure the mode line like everything
else. It isn't as easy to do as everything else
tho but with time and patience you can get it
to show whatever you want for each and every
mode. Note that some modes have a variable [1]
to do that, and if so, that's a much easier way
to do it.

Here is one example how it can look:

    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/emacs-init/mode-line.el

[1] E.g., (setq gnus-group-mode-line-format "%M%: %S")

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

lispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Van L]

Thanks,

Would you know how to get from the VCS
the version of the lispintro entirely
written by 

@quotation
Robert J. Chassell has worked with GNU Emacs since 1985.  He writes
and edits, teaches Emacs and Emacs Lisp, and speaks throughout the
world on software freedom.  Chassell was a founding Director and
Treasurer of the Free Software Foundation, Inc.  He is co-author of
the @cite{Texinfo} manual, and has edited more than a dozen other
books.  He graduated from Cambridge University, in England.  He has an
abiding interest in social and economic history and flies his own
airplane.
@end quotation

> Emanuel Berg wrote:
> 
> Van L wrote:
> 
>> When opening a file such as src/buffer.h the
>> modeline shows ,Top L1, showing ,Top L¹⁄₁₄₁₉,
>> saves diving to the Bot for the 100% Lnumber.
> 
> You can configure the mode line like everything
> else. It isn't as easy to do as everything else
> tho but with time and patience you can get it
> to show whatever you want for each and every
> mode. Note that some modes have a variable [1]
> to do that, and if so, that's a much easier way
> to do it.
> 
> Here is one example how it can look:
> 
>    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/emacs-init/mode-line.el
> 
> [1] E.g., (setq gnus-group-mode-line-format "%M%: %S")
> 
> -- 
> underground experts united
> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: lispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Emanuel Berg]

Van L wrote:

> Robert J. Chassell has worked with GNU Emacs
> since 1985. He writes and edits, teaches
> Emacs and Emacs Lisp, and speaks throughout
> the world on software freedom. Chassell was
> a founding Director and Treasurer of the Free
> Software Foundation, Inc. He is co-author of
> the @cite{Texinfo} manual, and has edited
> more than a dozen other books. He graduated
> from Cambridge University, in England. He has
> an abiding interest in social and economic
> history and flies his own airplane.

I've read one book on Emacs Lisp, so I bet that
was this one:

  * Chassell, Robert J. (2004). An introduction
    to Programming in Emacs Lisp. Boston:
    GNUpress. ISBN 1-882114-56-6. [1]

It also says: "He left the FSF to become
a full-time speaker on free software topics."
Full-time speaker on free software, ay?
Not many of those around what I've met! (RJC
died in 2017.)

These two URLs seem interesting:

    https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/goodbye-to-bob-chassell
    
    https://www.gnu.org/bulletins/bull1.txt

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_J._Chassell

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: lispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Emanuel Berg]

By the way in one of the URLs [1] it says he
was the first guy to be honored without being
a "developer". Still he wrote a book on Elisp?

[1] https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/goodbye-to-bob-chassell

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Van L]

> Emanuel Berg wrote:
> 
> I've read one book on Emacs Lisp, so I bet that
> was this one:
> 
>  * Chassell, Robert J. (2004). An introduction
>    to Programming in Emacs Lisp. Boston:
>    GNUpress. ISBN 1-882114-56-6. [1]

I ordered and received this 2nd edition.

It says on the back that it goes with GNU Emacs version 21.

I checkout `tags/emacs-21.3` but don’t find the texi file.

> It also says: "He left the FSF to become
> a full-time speaker on free software topics."
> Full-time speaker on free software, ay?
> Not many of those around what I've met! (RJC
> died in 2017.)

He was a good man. What a shame his voice isn’t recorded.
I can imagine his voice being better than, say, a nerdy looking
Ian Bremmer¹ and those of his ilk who decide who matters
or not in the New Era of Globalism.

He could fly and land his own aeroplane, not even Steve Wozniak² 
was able to.

— 
¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Bremmer
² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Wozniak

Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Van L <van@scratch.space>
> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 14:18:50 +1000
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> >  * Chassell, Robert J. (2004). An introduction
> >    to Programming in Emacs Lisp. Boston:
> >    GNUpress. ISBN 1-882114-56-6. [1]
> 
> I ordered and received this 2nd edition.
> 
> It says on the back that it goes with GNU Emacs version 21.
> 
> I checkout `tags/emacs-21.3` but don’t find the texi file.

The Introduction to Emacs Lisp and the Emacs Lisp Reference manuals
were made part of the Emacs distribution only in Emacs 22.1.  Until
then, they were maintained as separate distributions in separate
tarballs.  The "goes with GNU Emacs version X" means it describes that
version of Emacs, not that it physically comes with its tarball.

Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Van L]

> The Introduction to Emacs Lisp and the Emacs Lisp Reference manuals
> were made part of the Emacs distribution only in Emacs 22.1.  Until
> then, they were maintained as separate distributions in separate
> tarballs.

I’m after the `Revised Second Edition` tarball that went into print.

Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Van L <van@scratch.space>
> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 19:41:48 +1000
> 
> I’m after the `Revised Second Edition` tarball that went into print.

Then you should talk to someone with the FSF who knows what went into
print.  All I can help you with is these 2 URLs:

  https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/emacs-lisp-intro-README-2nd-edition
  https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/emacs-lisp-intro-2.04.tar.gz

I have no idea whether this is what went into print, so caveat emptor.

Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Van L]

> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> All I can help you with is these 2 URLs:
> 
>  https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/emacs-lisp-intro-README-2nd-edition
>  https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/emacs-lisp-intro-2.04.tar.gz
> 
> I have no idea whether this is what went into print, so caveat emptor.

Thanks for your help.
You are awesome.

Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Van L]

>> The Introduction to Emacs Lisp

FSF paperwork will be required to accept a 50 page cut?

The diff of 2nd ed. and what 26.1 has has 

  @c If you think this manual is too large for an introduction,
  @c consider this email exchange:                             
  @c                                                           
  @c       >> The intro is almost 300 pages in full.  I had exp
  @c       >                                                   
  @c       > This is an important point in its own right.  Coul
  @c       > write a simplified introduction that is only 50 pa
  @c       > That would be helpful to many potential users, I'd
  @c                                                           
  @c   > The problem with the introduction is that it was writt
  @c   > programming was only starting to be a skill "normal" p
  @c   > have access to.  So the text is extremely verbose and 
  @c   > sometimes hard to follow because of that.  The gist of
  @c   > document could be summarized in 50 pages.             
  @c                                                           
  @c This book is intentionally addressed to people who don't k
  @c program.  That is its purpose.  We recommend people start 
  @c program using this book.                                  
  @c                                                           
  @c If you DO know how to program in some other language, you 
  @c learn Emacs Lisp starting with the Emacs Lisp Reference Ma
  @c                                                           
  @c        Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>,                    
  @c        https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2018

Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Van L <van@scratch.space>
> Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 03:00:07 +1000
> 
> >> The Introduction to Emacs Lisp
> 
> FSF paperwork will be required to accept a 50 page cut?

What does the cited excerpt have to do with paperwork?

Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Van L]

> What does the cited excerpt have to do with [FSF] paperwork?

Before a person writes those 50 pages intending for that to
be useful in proximity to the 300 pages of the existing eintr.

A patch was offered after reading the Org Mode documentation and
FSF paperwork had to be in order to proceed was my interpretation.

Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Van L <van@scratch.space>
> Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 10:23:54 +1000
> 
> Before a person writes those 50 pages intending for that to
> be useful in proximity to the 300 pages of the existing eintr.

The rule of thumb is that anything that is larger than about 15 lines
needs an assignment, yes.

Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Gene]

On Sunday, June 24, 2018 at 1:00:27 PM UTC-4, Van L wrote:
                                                      
>   @c This book is intentionally addressed to people who don't k
>   @c program.  That is its purpose.  We recommend people start 
>   @c program using this book.  

Ahhh ... sage advice if ever there was.

If programming IS an art then I'll reciprocate analogically in kind:
As Golden Artist colors are a near-by manufacturer of paint for `real artists'
please read their `manuals' and `sales literature' as you try to engender whatever ARTISTRY you can from the `RTFM approach' to ANY sort of artistic endeavor.

https://www.goldenpaints.com/

Please let me know how you make out.
Spare no adjective in your tale of whoa.

I participated in a local art show back in '04 and was called a `local artist' by the photojournalist who took my picture and wrote an accompanying article.

As the local `audience' could be characterized as philistines with their tastes located right where they belong -- firmly in their mouths -- I as a `concept artist' couldn't exploit the medium the subspecies of Pretentious 
Ass -- EG `Artist' -- we would-be `concept artists' use as THOUGHTS -- mere metaphysical belly button lint -- are neither person, place, nor thing which the salt of the earth sensible sensate types REQUIRE to wrap their alleged minds and questionable -- if extant -- aesthetics around.

Lisp expressions, in contrast, DO allow metaphysical ideas and aesthetically pleasing figure-ground juxtapositions to be artistically expressed by would-be Concept Artists ... or so it seems.

I might be delusional, as all ideas ARE delusions until they can be expressed via a medium a sensible sensate can see, hear, taste or touch ... cram into their craw and mental masticate as if food for thought.

Best of luck in learning how to metaphorically `paint' by Reading the Effin' Manual!

Cheers!

Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Emanuel Berg]

Gene wrote:

> If programming IS an art

Programming is not an art, it is a *craft*.
Some people like to be white-collar scientific
programmers, and some people like to be
blue-collar engineering programmers.

All aspects are important and blend into each
other to some extent. For example the craftsman
may be an intuitive engineer and obviously the
best engineers are very crafty. The scientists
and I didn't get along, but I guess they are
important as well in their own way.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2018-06-29, at 18:30, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:

> Gene wrote:
>
>> If programming IS an art
>
> Programming is not an art, it is a *craft*.

Does there exist any *craft* which is not an *art*, too?

--
Marcin Borkowski
http://mbork.pl

Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Van L]

> Does there exist any *craft* which is not an *art*, too?

Cooking.

Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2018-06-30, at 06:13, Van L <van@scratch.space> wrote:

>> Does there exist any *craft* which is not an *art*, too?
>
> Cooking.

There are *lots* of people who'd disagree on this.

-- 
Marcin Borkowski
http://mbork.pl

Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Van L]

> There are *lots* of people who'd disagree on this.

The population of the world and the 
percentages on the internet has grown.

Why aren’t there more of the Bobs?

Re: elispintro's original

[Andreas Eder]

On Sa 30 Jun 2018 at 06:25, Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl> wrote:

> On 2018-06-30, at 06:13, Van L <van@scratch.space> wrote:
>
>>> Does there exist any *craft* which is not an *art*, too?
>>
>> Cooking.
>
> There are *lots* of people who'd disagree on this.

I certainly will.
Have you ever been to a three star restaurant? Then you will know!

'Andreas

Re: elispintro's original

[Emanuel Berg]

Andreas Eder wrote:

>>>> Does there exist any *craft* which is not
>>>> an *art*, too?
>>>
>>> Cooking.
>>
>> There are *lots* of people who'd disagree
>> on this.
>
> I certainly will. Have you ever been to
> a three star restaurant? Then you will know!

Here you will have to educate us ignoramuses
who incorrectly think that poor is cool, how
does that work? The more stars, the tastier
food, right?

If one defines a piece of art as an object that
appeals to our perception/cognition in
a positive way, like a record (sound),
a painting (vision), or a book (thoughts), then
I don't see why food cannot be an art, as it
very much affects our body and mind in
a probably even broader way!

With this definition there is a lot of art
around! Love, LSD, playing ice hockey...

However as for programming, it doesn't score
high on that list!

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: elispintro's original

[Andreas Eder]

On So 01 Jul 2018 at 16:37, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:

> Andreas Eder wrote:
>
>>>>> Does there exist any *craft* which is not
>>>>> an *art*, too?
>>>>
>>>> Cooking.
>>>
>>> There are *lots* of people who'd disagree
>>> on this.
>>
>> I certainly will. Have you ever been to
>> a three star restaurant? Then you will know!
>
> Here you will have to educate us ignoramuses
> who incorrectly think that poor is cool, how
> does that work? The more stars, the tastier
> food, right?

Well, it is not a question of tastier.
The food in a small french bistro can also be very tasteful.
It is simply a question of artfulness. You have to see and taste it.
Go to a good bookshop ant look into a book from the grat chefs.
Read about 'El Bulli'. Then you probably will get a hint of what I am
talking.

'Andreas

Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Emanuel Berg]

Marcin Borkowski wrote:

>>> If programming IS an art
>>
>> Programming is not an art, it is a *craft*.
>
> Does there exist any *craft* which is not an
> *art*, too?

Yes: programming :)

One can also think of mechanics, bricklaying,
fighting (altho there was a game for Neo Geo,
if anyone could ever afford that machine,
called "Art of Fighting", and boxing is
sometimes referred to as "the Sweet Science of
bruising/self defense"), moreover war (just
think of "Warcraft: Tides of Darkness", altho
war is clearly an art in "Art of War", 5th
century BC, as well as in "Star Wars: Empire
Strikes Back"), with probably more examples
as well!

Seriously, if anyone were to analyze this in
a dedicated way, first thing would be to define
what is "art", "craft", "science", and
"engineering".

And besides isn't undisputable art, like
artistic painting, very much a craft as well?
And with modern tools, like synthetic brushes
and plastic paint, perhaps there is even an
engineering and scientific part of it as well!

But when one says that "programming isn't an
art, it is a craft" those words are taken in
the popular understanding of the words. E.g.,
tell a bunch of kids programming is an art,
a few of them will consider themselves masters
already (while not knowing how to do it one
bit), while the others will think it is nothing
for them, just something for a selected few,
touched by the divine spirit!

But tell 'em it is a craft and maybe some of
them, the most intelligent, will understand
what it amounts to is actually pressing buttons
with your fingers and then figuring out what
just happened.


PS. Just because programming, i.e.
    writing code, isn't an art doesn't mean the
    end result cannot be a piece of art in some
    minds, or have artistic qualities and/or
    ingredients. For example, the Super
    Famicom/SNES game Chrono Trigger - no why
    isn't that art, if a Doors record or EPO
    novel is?


-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[tomas]

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On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 07:30:36PM +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Marcin Borkowski wrote:
> 
> >>> If programming IS an art
> >>
> >> Programming is not an art, it is a *craft*.
> >
> > Does there exist any *craft* which is not an
> > *art*, too?
> 
> Yes: programming :)

Some evidence to the contrary:

  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_coding>

Enjoy (esp. the linked video :)

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Van L]

> Emanuel Berg wrote:
> 
> Seriously, if anyone were to analyze this in
> a dedicated way, first thing would be to define
> what is "art", "craft", "science", and
> "engineering".

Add to that with "éclat" and "cruft" and a HBS
case study reporting on "Cambridge Analytica".¹

— 
¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica

Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Emanuel Berg]

Van L wrote:

> He could fly and land his own aeroplane, not
> even Steve Wozniak was able to.

Steve Wozniak had an aeroplane crash which
caused a brain injury that made him, for a long
period, unable to record new memories, if
I recall correctly (ha ha).

Probably it wasn't the only flight he made.

Besides there are aviators on this list. So it
can't be that difficult :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request)

[Van L]

> Emanuel Berg wrote:
> 
> (ha ha).

Do you think he sounded like 
a BBC foreign correspondent?