From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: delete-selection-mode Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 11:28:13 -0700 Message-ID: References: <87ocitw2dl.fsf@stupidchicken.com><201003130001.o2D01FFQ003489@godzilla.ics.uci.edu><87vdd1yqe4.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87eijjzrkd.fsf_-_@mail.jurta.org><20100317143519.GB4381@muc.de><22603146-A346-4FC2-8D74-5D6047865C3A@mit.edu> <87r5nf8s7q.fsf@siart.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1269109730 15902 80.91.229.12 (20 Mar 2010 18:28:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:28:50 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: , "'Uwe Siart'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Mar 20 19:28:41 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nt3Pc-0005Cf-M1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 19:28:40 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45589 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Nt3Pc-0005Gb-1M for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 14:28:40 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Nt3PU-0005GH-BW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 14:28:32 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=60751 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Nt3PR-0005G6-Vi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 14:28:30 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nt3PQ-0000lp-Rg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 14:28:29 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet11.oracle.com ([141.146.126.233]:59995) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nt3PO-0000lQ-Ge; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 14:28:26 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by acsinet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o2KISNjb015491 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:28:25 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o2KHs2Tf009816; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:28:23 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt002.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 102573261269109698; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 11:28:18 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.179.75) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 11:28:12 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcrITWB48eUqh47WQyGYEMkUFcWL+gAAgGFA In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Source-IP: acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090203.4BA513C7.00DF:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:122376 Archived-At: > We have testimony that some ordinary users want self-inserting > characters to delete the region (which they have made with the mouse). > We have testimony that one ordinary user thinks that same behavior is > a pain. I am sure both reports are factually accurate, but where do > we go from there? As a wise man once said, "Poll the users". > It would be useful to find out what some larger number of ordinary > users think. How many want self-inserting characters to delete the > mouse-selected region, how many are glad it doesn't, and how many > don't care? Failing a useful poll (and we seem to be failing to poll users, so far), we could offer our own guesses as to the number of ordinary users in each camp. You know what my guess would be. Other guesses? However, there are other things to consider in this regard, I think, including at least the following: 1. Is the proper comparison here merely the _number_ of (ordinary) users in each camp? Shouldn't the _relative cost_ in pain and suffering be factored in? I thought that Alan's strongest point was not merely that he and his sister think the usual behavior (hors Emacs) is a pain, but that it is a ***PAIN***, a "serious problem" that "causes distress", imposes "massive inconvenience", and inflicts "a lot of pain on lots of people". This was _very_ clear from his report. If this is the case - and it must be as credible as the rest of the sister-sample info ("factually accurate", at least as far as that one ordinary user is concerned, plus Alan), then I don't see how we can merely count and compare numbers of users in each camp. That would be downright dangerous, if not immoral. Surely, imposing massive pain, distress, and inconvenience is not warranted, even for only a few users, let alone the "countless" minority that Alan estimates would suffer (and are already suffering, out there). 2. A countervailing consideration is that Alan's sister specifically added that "'it's not too bad' if there's an undo key sequence." I don't know how much pain relief she had in mind, but Emacs does have a very good undo. 3. Also, Alan's sister reportedly does _not_ use type-to-replace outside Emacs, in any case. She explicitly hits the delete key before typing replacement text. IOW, she has presumably already learned to avoid the pain for the most part. Can we assume the same would likely be true of the other users in her camp? #2 and #3 would indicate that those users who are likely to experience pain would have at least some relief, whether outside or inside Emacs. Dunno whether that compensates completely for #1, but these are all things to be weighed.