From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Emacs learning curve Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 07:03:25 -0700 Message-ID: References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <87wrt0e81n.fsf@telefonica.net><62E9699C07054418AB66F9C5FCB54E5C@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279116232 7399 80.91.229.12 (14 Jul 2010 14:03:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:03:52 +0000 (UTC) To: "'Uday S Reddy'" , Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 14 16:03:51 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OZ2Yu-0004ao-B9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 16:03:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48390 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OZ2Yt-0006XT-4x for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 10:03:47 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=47966 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OZ2Yl-0006Ww-MU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 10:03:40 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OZ2Yk-0004CO-49 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 10:03:39 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:56021) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OZ2Yj-0004C7-Sy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 10:03:38 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsinet13.oracle.com (rcsinet13.oracle.com [148.87.113.125]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o6EE3Qkp000644 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:03:27 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by rcsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o6EE3Pql013418; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:03:25 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt001.oracle.com by acsmt354.oracle.com with ESMTP id 425635971279116203; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 07:03:23 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/141.144.168.170) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 07:03:23 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcsjQSMq+E1p0venQoC+mzaACxbgVQAGphwg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Source-IP: acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4C3DC3AE.00D9:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127280 Archived-At: > > The question of whether to consider scrolling from the > > point of view of the view port / window or the point of > > view of the paper / data surface / buffer (which > > is moving?) is as old as the hills. And the answer > > sometimes depends on the particular application in a > > logical way (think cockpit); otherwise it is arbitrary. > > I thought sensible systems always did it from the point of > view of the human user, ergo human-centered systems. Of course, but what is the point of view of the human user? It depends on the application and what the user is doing, where s?he "naturally" places her point of view. In some graphics domains it sometimes makes sense to take the point of view of the paper (object) and not the view port; in other contexts, vice versa. "The human" is neither the view port nor the paper, and can identify with either, whichever is more convenient/pertinent to the task at hand. For things like scrolling, there is no "correct", "natural", or "human" point of view (IMO). Witness the number of scrolling implementations with both orientations developed over the years. Now if one of the orientations becomes much more widely used, then everyone becomes used to it and it does indeed appear natural, human-oriented, normal. Of course. But there is nothing inherently more natural or human about either (IMO). A Brit in Yankland or a Yank in Britland can easily relate to this when trying to cross the street or drive. What seems so natural to the one is alien to the other. These side-of-the-road conventions are basically arbitrary (yes, I know the history, but for practical purposes we can call it a toss-up). And yet! And yet one side of the road really _does_ feel natural and human - the side you are used to.