From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail
From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Martin=20Edstr=C3=B6m?=" <meedstrom@runbox.eu>
Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel
Subject: Re: Reconsider defaults for use-package-vc-prefer-newest
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2024 17:24:35 +0200 (CEST)
Message-ID: <E1sqDad-0004me-7y@rmmprod07.runbox>
References: <E1sptD6-0006mA-0i@rmmprod05.runbox> <86y13sdbbx.fsf@gnu.org>
 <E1spvCa-00018D-MX@rmmprod05.runbox> <86v7yvde74.fsf@gnu.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214";
	logging-data="23127"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io"
Cc: "emacs-devel" <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
To: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 16 17:25:34 2024
Return-path: <emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org>
Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org
Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17])
	by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
	(Exim 4.92)
	(envelope-from <emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org>)
	id 1sqDbZ-0005qp-LX
	for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 16 Sep 2024 17:25:33 +0200
Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org)
	by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1)
	(envelope-from <emacs-devel-bounces@gnu.org>)
	id 1sqDao-0004i9-Hu; Mon, 16 Sep 2024 11:24:46 -0400
Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10])
 by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <meedstrom@runbox.eu>)
 id 1sqDal-0004i0-Rn
 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Sep 2024 11:24:44 -0400
Original-Received: from mailtransmit05.runbox.com ([2a0c:5a00:149::26])
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <meedstrom@runbox.eu>)
 id 1sqDai-00063P-Pl; Mon, 16 Sep 2024 11:24:43 -0400
Original-Received: from mailtransmit02.runbox ([10.9.9.162] helo=aibo.runbox.com)
 by mailtransmit05.runbox.com with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls
 TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93)
 (envelope-from <meedstrom@runbox.eu>)
 id 1sqDad-00E8Si-M7; Mon, 16 Sep 2024 17:24:35 +0200
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=runbox.eu; 
 s=selector1;
 h=Message-Id:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Subject:CC:To:From:
 MIME-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type;
 bh=bTiiU4z+sy1dSvIJOA36zdw6FadGA41U6E3pzYDlTQQ=; b=eEeZ9rXRxxViL/G5Zpu1JCFIOZ
 U2i4z4hOld5Se9V31DAG5KQeokz0ecq6sWDFBO4argW55HRbs+eizwuu0eiqW5aM0Qyo7tWFVEnK8
 viYN8S0h84Y6Uk7g5UI8xnGUWjLb3L6kYs+dMbYGZRz0qrJeARebubRWSauMLsMIsMvpSKmLMYBE2
 H19B7tRlfzyeB/Hv8ufD3IedWKKfVTuL+A64S1HuNyzTIwhVkEyzIOGk/8yKtmZB88PrpA+e2Z6GH
 OJhP55+Kr6P3ZQh0TBQ53JhWThA85NcLfTS3I/qDkZ4jG7LLTfiPvUG5XEKGn/8ZuvuLc/ncbG4La
 xTxnMqQg==;
Original-Received: from [10.9.9.129] (helo=rmmprod07.runbox)
 by mailtransmit02.runbox with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2)
 (envelope-from <meedstrom@runbox.eu>)
 id 1sqDad-00007k-9l; Mon, 16 Sep 2024 17:24:35 +0200
Original-Received: from mail by rmmprod07.runbox with local (Exim 4.86_2)
 (envelope-from <meedstrom@runbox.eu>)
 id 1sqDad-0004me-7y; Mon, 16 Sep 2024 17:24:35 +0200
Content-Disposition: inline
Original-Received: from [Authenticated alias (1196375)] by runbox.com with http
 (RMM6); Mon, 16 Sep 2024 15:24:35 GMT
X-RMM-Aliasid: 1196375
X-Mailer: RMM6
In-Reply-To: <86v7yvde74.fsf@gnu.org>
Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a0c:5a00:149::26;
 envelope-from=meedstrom@runbox.eu; helo=mailtransmit05.runbox.com
X-Spam_score_int: -27
X-Spam_score: -2.8
X-Spam_bar: --
X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1,
 DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001,
 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001,
 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
X-Spam_action: no action
X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." <emacs-devel.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/options/emacs-devel>,
 <mailto:emacs-devel-request@gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel>
List-Post: <mailto:emacs-devel@gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:emacs-devel-request@gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-devel>,
 <mailto:emacs-devel-request@gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org
Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org
Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:323666
Archived-At: <http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/323666>

On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 14:34:55 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > While the option is a new thing in Emacs 30, use-package :vc itself is =
a new thing in Emacs 30, so it is not as if there is an old behavior to emu=
late.  I should also point out that the module it was inspired by, vc-use-p=
ackage, actually had the opposite default!  So, that setting has already be=
en tested by lots of users on Emacs <29, and it is Emacs 30 that will chang=
e things.
>=20
> Yes, you said that in your original message, and I understand that
> argument.  But as I responded, I'm not convinced the two options must
> always be in sync, as they are used differently for different purposes.

Okay, I'll accept that for the command package-vc-install as I have not tho=
ught much about its use cases.  I want to call attention to the old use-pac=
kage :vc, shippedwhich had the confusing vc-use-package [1].  The Emacs 30 =
use-package :vc is a drop-in 1:1 replacement  This thing:    It had the opp=
osite default from the one Emacs 30 is about to have.

>=20
> > Anyway. If that's not good enough, maybe we can test the new setting in=
 Emacs 31, and backport to Emacs 30.2 in the future.
>=20
> Yes, that would be one way forward.  Especially if enough users come
> to us asking to flip the default, and explain why.
>=20
> > I should also point out that the catastrophe occurs not at release time=
, but years afterwards, when we're on Emacs 31, 32, 33... but devs still wa=
nt to support Emacs 30, getting worse with time. So I do hope that it will =
be possible to change a setting like this with Emacs 30.2 or some other "bu=
gfix" release.
>=20
> There's no reason to do this for user options, since customizing an
> option if the user doesn't like its default is easy.
>=20
> > As for making devs get their act together, sure, they could do that. Bu=
t three problems with that attitude:
> >=20
> > 1. It makes sense to impose requirements on devs who are submitting pac=
kages to NonGNU Elpa, but this setting affects everyone, including those wh=
o have not opted in to such requirements.
> > 2. Not every dev will get the memo, naturally, and the ones who get hur=
t in the meantime are users, who believe that the dev's package is broken w=
hen it is not (and the dev should not be punished for being out of the loop=
).
> > 3. The devs who do get the memo, and were previously content with a fro=
zen Package-Version, will resent GNU for forcing what they perceive as a wo=
rkaround. I do not think that is worth it.  Like it or not, MELPA has allow=
ed many of us to taste of the convenience of git/hg tags, and it didn't use=
 to be a problem... until Emacs 30. Now they have to adopt some toolchain l=
ike sisyphus.el and pollute the commit log with two extra commits for every=
 new version, to solve what used to be a non-issue.
>=20
> I consider advancing Package-Version when significant changes are made
> a simple and uncontroversial thing to do for any package developer.  I
> cannot imagine why someone who wants their package in good shape to
> regard this as some annoyance.