From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs design and architecture Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 19:14:31 -0400 Message-ID: References: <83r0n4rj78.fsf@gnu.org> <83cyynpmvd.fsf@gnu.org> <838r99mh40.fsf@gnu.org> <83h6nwlmt4.fsf@gnu.org> <456d12ac-ecf4-3de4-56bb-a2440580777f@gutov.dev> <83a5tokmsv.fsf@gnu.org> <83sf7fki5g.fsf@gnu.org> <43d642a8-d1b4-05ed-41e0-6e52d22df2d4@gutov.dev> <83edizjn0v.fsf@gnu.org> <0518f65b-1dd1-6923-8497-da4d3aeac631@gutov.dev> <1cff05f8-df80-b776-5175-dd27a6e59799@gutov.dev> <87wmwqiax9.fsf@whxvd.name> <007486bc-80d5-82b7-f274-71e8c291bdc9@gutov.dev> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="11720"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: iota@whxvd.name, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 20 01:15:25 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qijwC-0002pt-SB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 20 Sep 2023 01:15:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qijvO-0008S7-37; Tue, 19 Sep 2023 19:14:34 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qijvM-0008Rk-Fn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 19 Sep 2023 19:14:32 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qijvL-00061f-SI; Tue, 19 Sep 2023 19:14:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=9QXDSzww3qMuU4kKOqgppC9UulUleWkd21c2iSivaug=; b=UV0/B9WA96vr 2f99d1w7XkXClEKQhUYbW7sim8iV21LHi/S4N9SBlbM7k+apMNrybXzenmQ4Y4ObJoiOJ7fwaR2ko bebgFfd2c3en4m1Kwq58pXoueOXWEYIxqxyYa/jayW0dQv7YuSgVxYtYqHYwYCCkpSYEoY96Jmtpz e/caC4UKxcqd8/CcTVKfW8EnJt68GmHyR3cxbgxLcYLe5dquRuGoZAVUqMBiyx7abSF65O2oDlVs1 PXUVdJyfczWU2nYSpjKdRQcZUjjvSMHR8Ya7GM29YEilXPET9ZDlKgmv7v6377ra26uw0SCfVdQhM cDGlaqCQu3IwjZc15lyvBw==; Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qijvL-0005dd-Jb; Tue, 19 Sep 2023 19:14:31 -0400 In-Reply-To: <007486bc-80d5-82b7-f274-71e8c291bdc9@gutov.dev> (message from Dmitry Gutov on Mon, 18 Sep 2023 21:48:49 +0300) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310798 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Wasm or JS, with this approach it seems like we'd need to compile Lisp > to JS/WA, or use FFI, or (probably) both. You're proposing to evaluate issues by technical criteria alone. This decision has implications about freedom -- and danger to it. That has to be the principal basis for deciding. In this question, we have to compare JavaScript with Emavcs Lisp in regards to the likely seepage of nonfree software into use of Emacs. It is possible to release a nonfree program in Emacs Lisp, especially if it uses only the documented Emacs Lisp interfaces. But there is no widespread practice of doing so, so in practice that is not a significanmt problem as far as I have heard. By contrast, the web is crawling with nonfree JavaScript programs and most internet users run them unaware of the issue they raise, or even that they are downloading them. Anything that GNU software does with JavaScript is a potential problem for achieving the GNU system's goal: giving users freedom. GNU won't achieve that if normal use of GNU programs invites use of nonfree JavaScript. Therefore, any plan to make GNU software relate more often to JavaScript needs to be scrutinized above all in terms of the possible danger. In GNU, freedom for the users (which includes us developers) is the first priority. There is also a technical reason why effectively combining Emacs with the LibreOffice code is not a good idea. It would make a large, confusing hybrid mess. To debug it would require knowing more languages. Some of the methods implemented in LibreOffice may be useful for Emacs, so we should choose the useful ones and adapt them to the context of Emacs. And keep it customizable in Emacs Lisp. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)