From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Org mode and Emacs Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 21:32:50 -0400 Message-ID: References: <83msyemjx8.fsf@gnu.org> <871qfpoij6.fsf@gnu.org> <87fs45ivyo.fsf@localhost> <87h6okga15.fsf@localhost> <87cyz61cbp.fsf@localhost> <87v8cuqtkr.fsf@localhost> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22288"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ihor Radchenko Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 04 03:33:08 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qcySi-0005Yz-21 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 Sep 2023 03:33:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qcySX-000217-2c; Sun, 03 Sep 2023 21:32:57 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qcyST-00020H-FK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 03 Sep 2023 21:32:53 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qcyST-00043z-74; Sun, 03 Sep 2023 21:32:53 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=/G0fIgMn4rPfAbO9LS2ow1yl1D5rxj0L+Gy72nHW+sU=; b=or016323Ewzq TDDEF+a7pMMKzUhgNUndq84voj/EbIXXaFIpctnWVK8mCtXdTJPqSsJTfSmOkPliV2E9ok6z7Jing Ve6U8AjuK86Dn32iPyt6WlvTSzG6aikEUMvDv0gZ58CCsov+O1ooe6RU6I3Cgdv8fsX5uRglCVb86 Jc5GaXYtJyLrufrWjrLGdK+6KKRe+81+AzgFTHgkdXfLn2dTIpabbOI8ghNfYU7KBaIoIR7CgizqP wATNhz+if0WMKODAxLxiRIHeAUt74vQle2UQPmuIWyl0dC3YnIQnl1uHJMvcJW0A46dXloyBdi/85 wML07tqzk/JxzBZFw2CGTA==; Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qcySQ-0005mz-5b; Sun, 03 Sep 2023 21:32:50 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87v8cuqtkr.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Fri, 01 Sep 2023 06:46:28 +0000) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310039 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > One feature of Org we are discussing here is "exporting": > https://orgmode.org/manual/Exporting.html - an ability to convert Org > documents into other textual formats. I think I understand what you mean by exporting. Maybe I understand what you have in mind for "exporting" Org documents as Texinfo so as to make GNU manuals. But I think I see a disappointing difference between the two. Texinfo for manuals is semantic markup, but the proposed use of Org mode for manuals is not. With Texinfo, you specify what the manual contents should be, and in each format you get that contents as output. See what I mean? I was hoping to see that same smoothness with Org mode -- that you specify the contents and Org mode owuld give youa manual with that contents. But instead, it seems that Org mode for a manual would specify Texinfo text to "export", and Org would generate Texinfo source to export which Texinfo could then convert convert into manuals as output. This exporting might _work_, but it not be as good, overall, as Texinfo. It would be disappointing. Could it be it possible to make Org mode generate the manual output formats using contructs that are semantic in meaning, that specify semantic markup for the contents of the manual -- and have Org mode generate the output formats to represent the semantics of the manual contents? That would be a good replacement for Texinfo. I think this from Bastien Guerry Yes, that's the idea behind using one-char constructs for basic inline markup (eg ~code~, /emphasis/, etc.) and two-chars constructs for more specific inline markup (eg ~~defn~~, =~defvar~=, etc.). Is a sort of thing that might be smooth in this sense. It would specify semantics of the contents, rather than "what to export". It might bot be the best way (as Po Lu says), but at least it is semantic markup. > For more complete support of software manual-specific markup, we plan to > introduce more versatile, hackable markup that can be extended by users > to fit their needs. See > https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/87a6b8pbhg.fsf@posteo.net/ and > https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/87mtaez8do.fsf@localhost/ That coukd be the sort of thing that would be as smooth so Texinfo format. > One of the ideas was to follow TeXinfo markup closely, extending with > some Org-specific needs: > Simple case: > @name{} > If we need to escape { or } inside: > @name{{ Extra configuration: > @name[:key value ...]{} This describes a syntax, but not the semantics. For > Simple case: > @name{} what's an example of what _name_ might be, and what would it mean? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)