From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [NonGNU ELPA] New package: llm Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2023 21:43:30 -0400 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24421"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Andrew Hyatt Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Aug 13 03:44:28 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qV09c-00069h-7l for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 13 Aug 2023 03:44:28 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qV08i-000794-AJ; Sat, 12 Aug 2023 21:43:32 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qV08g-00078V-IA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Aug 2023 21:43:30 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qV08g-0002T0-8f; Sat, 12 Aug 2023 21:43:30 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=ycw2uJl0dgadTWlfR/wufvWOYy5twVJRtYAeg7L3Jgk=; b=Cg/+vYQcPCBw q48BoFdpCLI+KDSXAVIKmx3Ar0m0aZ2EVR09z/oNShYSjW/auyR3s5zx94D7FQ9v65lhK3G4FOsZb RSWHjMHQsNN+upCm03CClkp3kmlw7Dk26aS8eFzpwzwaK6xnM58hkQs3u0+zrXAiBCfjNJnN/ZaDK xl15xm32n2oaiiiqxiBpzgQbO4C8rIuG0b933zchv0w03o4s6LMf6uGAzJdDTDRhDH0mxe8kxkiuv +JUh+SugEIHDOweUXUO3SwisXtrxJS+ry/LMGXlxdFKmY9zQcCEOw3fpgVL+yKkeBqMDJyrMxiBWz LJIsjB3w4evG4NjoqnQTOQ==; Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qV08g-0001mb-11; Sat, 12 Aug 2023 21:43:30 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Andrew Hyatt on Wed, 9 Aug 2023 00:37:16 -0400) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:308635 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > What you are saying is consistent with the GNU coding standard. However, I > think any message about this would be annoying, I am sure it would be a little annoying. But assuming the user can type SPC and move on from that message, the annoyance will be quite little. personally, and would be a > deterrent for clients to use this library. If the library is quite useful I doubt anyone would be deterred. If anyone minded it the message enough to stop using the package, perse could edit this out of the code. This issue is an example of those where two different values are pertinent. There is convenience, which counts but is superficial. And there is the purpose of the GNU system, which for 40 years has led the fight against injustice in software. That value is deep and, in the long term, the most important value of all. When they conflict in a specific practical matter, there is always pressure to prioritize convenience. But that is not wise. The right approach is to look for a ocmpromise which serves both goals. I am sure we can find one here. I suggested showing the message once a day, because that is what first occurred to me. But there are lots of ways to vary the details. Here's an idea. For each language model, it could diisplay the message the first, second, fifth, tenth, and after that every tenth time the user starts that mode. With this, the frequency of little annoyance will diminish soon, but the point will not be forgotten. You made suggestions for how to exclude more code from Emacs itself, and support for obscure language models we probably should exclude. But there is no need to exclude the support for the well-known ones, as I've explained. And we can do better than that! We can educate the users about what is wrong with those systems -- something that the media hysteria fails to mention at all. That is important -- let's use Emacs for it! > All implementations can then separately be made available on some other > package library not associated with GNU. In this scenario, I wouldn't have > warnings on those implementations, just as the many llm-based packages on > various alternative ELPAs do not have warnings today. They ought to show warnings -- the issue is exactly the same. We should not slide quietly into acceptance and normalization of a new systematic injustice. Opposing it is our job. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)