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* bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)
@ 2022-07-12  3:06 Stefan Kangas
  2022-07-12  3:45 ` Visuwesh
                   ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Kangas @ 2022-07-12  3:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 56510

Severity: wishlist

Some of the games in Emacs look a bit dated.  I put it to you that they
are not excellent promotion for Emacs, and that we are better served by
having fewer but better games.

I suggest that we either remove some of them from the "Tools -> Games"
menu, or obsolete them outright.  Here are the ones that I don't think
pass the bar:

 - 5x5.el
 - blackbox.el
 - gomoku.el
 - pong.el
 - solitaire.el

I also ask if these games/libraries are really pulling their weight:

 - animate.el
 - handwrite.el
 - studly.el





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)
  2022-07-12  3:06 bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu) Stefan Kangas
@ 2022-07-12  3:45 ` Visuwesh
  2022-07-12  8:27 ` Phil Sainty
                   ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Visuwesh @ 2022-07-12  3:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: 56510

[திங்கள் ஜூலை 11, 2022] Stefan Kangas wrote:

> Some of the games in Emacs look a bit dated.  I put it to you that they
> are not excellent promotion for Emacs, and that we are better served by
> having fewer but better games.

[ What exactly do you mean by "better games"?  Do you mean to say that
  they should look visually interesting?  ]

> I suggest that we either remove some of them from the "Tools -> Games"
> menu, or obsolete them outright.  Here are the ones that I don't think
> pass the bar:
>
>  - 5x5.el
>  - blackbox.el
>  - gomoku.el
>  - pong.el
>  - solitaire.el

I never properly checked out 5x5 but it looks like really interesting.
I never understood blackbox however.

Gomoku and solitaire are both standard puzzle games.  I was very pleased
to know that my childhood pastime was included in Emacs, I suggest we
don't obsolete them.  (Solitaire in particular is a very rewarding
game.)

Pong is unfortunately too choppy for me to play it.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)
  2022-07-12  3:06 bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu) Stefan Kangas
  2022-07-12  3:45 ` Visuwesh
@ 2022-07-12  8:27 ` Phil Sainty
  2022-07-12  9:54   ` Stefan Kangas
  2022-07-12 13:09 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  2022-07-12 13:26 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Phil Sainty @ 2022-07-12  8:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: 56510

On 2022-07-12 15:06, Stefan Kangas wrote:
> Some of the games in Emacs look a bit dated.  I put it to you that they
> are not excellent promotion for Emacs, and that we are better served by
> having fewer but better games.

Why do they need to be "an excellent promotion for Emacs" as opposed
to "games you can play"?  And I put it to you that most of Emacs looks
"a bit dated" to most people (at least by default).

I don't understand why we'd remove any working games from the games
menu.  It's not as if there are so many of them that people are lost
for choice.


-Phil






^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)
  2022-07-12  8:27 ` Phil Sainty
@ 2022-07-12  9:54   ` Stefan Kangas
  2022-07-12 13:28     ` Eli Zaretskii
                       ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Kangas @ 2022-07-12  9:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Phil Sainty; +Cc: 56510

Phil Sainty <psainty@orcon.net.nz> writes:

> On 2022-07-12 15:06, Stefan Kangas wrote:
>> Some of the games in Emacs look a bit dated.  I put it to you that they
>> are not excellent promotion for Emacs, and that we are better served by
>> having fewer but better games.
>
> Why do they need to be "an excellent promotion for Emacs" as opposed
> to "games you can play"?

I was trying to be polite, sorry.  Let me put it a bit more bluntly:
they make Emacs look scruffy and antiquated, and should much sooner be
hidden than actively promoted.

> And I put it to you that most of Emacs looks "a bit dated" to most
> people (at least by default).

Indeed.  We can and should improve that.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)
  2022-07-12  3:06 bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu) Stefan Kangas
  2022-07-12  3:45 ` Visuwesh
  2022-07-12  8:27 ` Phil Sainty
@ 2022-07-12 13:09 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  2022-07-12 14:04   ` Stefan Kangas
  2022-07-12 13:26 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2022-07-12 13:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: 56510

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

> I suggest that we either remove some of them from the "Tools -> Games"
> menu, or obsolete them outright.  Here are the ones that I don't think
> pass the bar:
>
>  - 5x5.el
>  - blackbox.el
>  - gomoku.el
>  - pong.el
>  - solitaire.el

I think pong is vaguely amusing (but it needs fixing -- it doesn't work
well by default since it uses a too-wide buffer).  I think removing the
rest from the menu might make sense, because they sure aren't pretty.

> I also ask if these games/libraries are really pulling their weight:
>
>  - animate.el
>  - handwrite.el
>  - studly.el

I think keeping those for amusement value is worth it.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)
  2022-07-12  3:06 bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu) Stefan Kangas
                   ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2022-07-12 13:09 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
@ 2022-07-12 13:26 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2022-07-12 13:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: 56510

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

> Some of the games in Emacs look a bit dated.  I put it to you that they
> are not excellent promotion for Emacs, and that we are better served by
> having fewer but better games.
>
> I suggest that we either remove some of them from the "Tools -> Games"
> menu, or obsolete them outright.  Here are the ones that I don't think
> pass the bar:
>
>  - 5x5.el
>  - blackbox.el
>  - gomoku.el
>  - pong.el
>  - solitaire.el

I especially oppose obsoleting Le Solitaire, Pong, and Blackbox.  As for
the others, I think there's no point in ever declaring an amusement
obsolete, especially since we haven't been getting any more lately.

As for the menu, removing it seems to be a no-brainer, since games are
not tools.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)
  2022-07-12  9:54   ` Stefan Kangas
@ 2022-07-12 13:28     ` Eli Zaretskii
  2022-07-12 13:29     ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
  2022-07-12 15:13     ` Drew Adams
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-07-12 13:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: psainty, 56510

> Cc: 56510@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 04:54:45 -0500
> 
> Phil Sainty <psainty@orcon.net.nz> writes:
> 
> > On 2022-07-12 15:06, Stefan Kangas wrote:
> >> Some of the games in Emacs look a bit dated.  I put it to you that they
> >> are not excellent promotion for Emacs, and that we are better served by
> >> having fewer but better games.
> >
> > Why do they need to be "an excellent promotion for Emacs" as opposed
> > to "games you can play"?
> 
> I was trying to be polite, sorry.  Let me put it a bit more bluntly:
> they make Emacs look scruffy and antiquated, and should much sooner be
> hidden than actively promoted.

Aren't you exaggerating a bit?  How can a game make Emacs look
"scruffy and antiquated"?  And how can removing some games without
adding anything in their stead make Emacs look better?

If you (or someone else) personally don't like those games, you are
welcome not to play them.  But why force your views on others in such
a blatant way?





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)
  2022-07-12  9:54   ` Stefan Kangas
  2022-07-12 13:28     ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2022-07-12 13:29     ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
  2022-07-12 15:13     ` Drew Adams
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2022-07-12 13:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: Phil Sainty, 56510

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

> I was trying to be polite, sorry.  Let me put it a bit more bluntly:
> they make Emacs look scruffy and antiquated, and should much sooner be
> hidden than actively promoted.

[...]

> Indeed.  We can and should improve that.

The last thing by which someone will judge a text editor (of all things)
is the selection of games available to play.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)
  2022-07-12 13:09 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
@ 2022-07-12 14:04   ` Stefan Kangas
  2022-07-12 14:23     ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Kangas @ 2022-07-12 14:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: 56510

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

>> I suggest that we either remove some of them from the "Tools -> Games"
>> menu, or obsolete them outright.  Here are the ones that I don't think
>> pass the bar:
>>
>>  - 5x5.el
>>  - blackbox.el
>>  - gomoku.el
>>  - pong.el
>>  - solitaire.el
>
> I think pong is vaguely amusing (but it needs fixing -- it doesn't work
> well by default since it uses a too-wide buffer).  I think removing the
> rest from the menu might make sense, because they sure aren't pretty.

Could we agree to drop "5x5", "blackbox", "gomoku" and "solitaire" (or
some subset thereof) from the menu?  Eli?





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)
  2022-07-12 14:04   ` Stefan Kangas
@ 2022-07-12 14:23     ` Eli Zaretskii
  2022-07-12 14:36       ` Eli Zaretskii
  2022-07-12 14:38       ` Stefan Kangas
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-07-12 14:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: larsi, 56510

> Cc: 56510@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:04:44 -0500
> 
> Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
> 
> >> I suggest that we either remove some of them from the "Tools -> Games"
> >> menu, or obsolete them outright.  Here are the ones that I don't think
> >> pass the bar:
> >>
> >>  - 5x5.el
> >>  - blackbox.el
> >>  - gomoku.el
> >>  - pong.el
> >>  - solitaire.el
> >
> > I think pong is vaguely amusing (but it needs fixing -- it doesn't work
> > well by default since it uses a too-wide buffer).  I think removing the
> > rest from the menu might make sense, because they sure aren't pretty.
> 
> Could we agree to drop "5x5", "blackbox", "gomoku" and "solitaire" (or
> some subset thereof) from the menu?  Eli?

I don't see why remove any games from there.






^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)
  2022-07-12 14:23     ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2022-07-12 14:36       ` Eli Zaretskii
  2022-07-12 14:38       ` Stefan Kangas
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-07-12 14:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: stefan; +Cc: larsi, 56510

> Cc: larsi@gnus.org, 56510@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:23:00 +0300
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> 
> > Cc: 56510@debbugs.gnu.org
> > From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> > Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:04:44 -0500
> > 
> > Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
> > 
> > >> I suggest that we either remove some of them from the "Tools -> Games"
> > >> menu, or obsolete them outright.  Here are the ones that I don't think
> > >> pass the bar:
> > >>
> > >>  - 5x5.el
> > >>  - blackbox.el
> > >>  - gomoku.el
> > >>  - pong.el
> > >>  - solitaire.el
> > >
> > > I think pong is vaguely amusing (but it needs fixing -- it doesn't work
> > > well by default since it uses a too-wide buffer).  I think removing the
> > > rest from the menu might make sense, because they sure aren't pretty.
> > 
> > Could we agree to drop "5x5", "blackbox", "gomoku" and "solitaire" (or
> > some subset thereof) from the menu?  Eli?
> 
> I don't see why remove any games from there.

Or let me turn the table and ask you: what are the criteria for the
decision?  Why these games yes and others no?





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)
  2022-07-12 14:23     ` Eli Zaretskii
  2022-07-12 14:36       ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2022-07-12 14:38       ` Stefan Kangas
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Kangas @ 2022-07-12 14:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: larsi, 56510-done

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> I don't see why remove any games from there.

I guess we won't make more progress here so I'm closing the bug.
Thanks for considering my suggestions.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)
  2022-07-12  9:54   ` Stefan Kangas
  2022-07-12 13:28     ` Eli Zaretskii
  2022-07-12 13:29     ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
@ 2022-07-12 15:13     ` Drew Adams
  2022-07-12 15:56       ` Stefan Kangas
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2022-07-12 15:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas, Phil Sainty; +Cc: 56510@debbugs.gnu.org

> Let me put it a bit more bluntly: they make Emacs
> look scruffy and antiquated, and should much
> sooner be hidden than actively promoted.

Heaven forbid that Emacs should appear scruffy
and antiquated!  We can't have folks seeing that.

Take all them longhairs out NOW, hose 'em down,
shave their heads, and disinfect 'em.  Schnell !

> > And I put it to you that most of Emacs looks
> > "a bit dated" to most people (at least by default).
> 
> Indeed.  We can and should improve that.

Some of the best people and things look "dated".
Some of the worst look up-to-date.

Emacs is a Stradivarius.  And carefully scruffy
by design.

Emacs is a rain forest, with things growing on/in
things growing on/in things growing on/in things...

You prefer a blockhouse of antiseptic concrete
cells, perhaps.  Well, you can have that too -
just customize till squeaky-clean, wash, rinse,
repeat...

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)
  2022-07-12 15:13     ` Drew Adams
@ 2022-07-12 15:56       ` Stefan Kangas
  2022-07-12 16:23         ` Drew Adams
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Kangas @ 2022-07-12 15:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Drew Adams, Phil Sainty; +Cc: 56510@debbugs.gnu.org

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> Some of the best people and things look "dated".
> Some of the worst look up-to-date.

Right, but this is more a case of wearing socks to a job interview.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)
  2022-07-12 15:56       ` Stefan Kangas
@ 2022-07-12 16:23         ` Drew Adams
  2022-07-13  3:18           ` Richard Stallman
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2022-07-12 16:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas, Phil Sainty; +Cc: 56510@debbugs.gnu.org

> > Some of the best people and things look "dated".
> > Some of the worst look up-to-date.
> 
> Right, but this is more a case of wearing socks to a job interview.

You mean, instead of going barefoot?

Is Emacs applying for a job?

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)
  2022-07-12 16:23         ` Drew Adams
@ 2022-07-13  3:18           ` Richard Stallman
  2022-07-13 16:47             ` Drew Adams
  2022-07-13 22:58             ` Jean Louis
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2022-07-13  3:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Drew Adams; +Cc: psainty, stefan, 56510

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > Right, but this is more a case of wearing socks to a job interview.

  > You mean, instead of going barefoot?

LOL!

I once went to a job interview wearing a Bulgarian folk dance costume,
just to prove I could get offered the job that way.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)
  2022-07-13  3:18           ` Richard Stallman
@ 2022-07-13 16:47             ` Drew Adams
  2022-07-13 22:58             ` Jean Louis
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2022-07-13 16:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: rms@gnu.org
  Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, stefan@marxist.se, 56510@debbugs.gnu.org

>>> Right, but this is more a case of wearing socks to a job interview.
> 
>> You mean, instead of going barefoot?
> 
> LOL!
> 
> I once went to a job interview wearing a Bulgarian folk dance costume,
> just to prove I could get offered the job that way.

Were you dismissed as being vulgarian?

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)
  2022-07-13  3:18           ` Richard Stallman
  2022-07-13 16:47             ` Drew Adams
@ 2022-07-13 22:58             ` Jean Louis
  2022-07-15  3:34               ` Richard Stallman
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Jean Louis @ 2022-07-13 22:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Richard Stallman; +Cc: psainty, stefan, 56510, Drew Adams

* Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> [2022-07-13 06:20]:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
>   > > Right, but this is more a case of wearing socks to a job interview.
> 
>   > You mean, instead of going barefoot?
> 
> LOL!
> 
> I once went to a job interview wearing a Bulgarian folk dance costume,
> just to prove I could get offered the job that way.

What happened then?


Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)
  2022-07-13 22:58             ` Jean Louis
@ 2022-07-15  3:34               ` Richard Stallman
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2022-07-15  3:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jean Louis; +Cc: psainty, stefan, drew.adams, 56510

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > I once went to a job interview wearing a Bulgarian folk dance costume,
  > > just to prove I could get offered the job that way.

  > What happened then?

I was offered the job, but I decided not to take it.  After learning
more about it, I found it would not have offered a better social
environment than the dying AI lab.

This is off-topic so I will stop here.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-07-15  3:34 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 19+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-07-12  3:06 bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu) Stefan Kangas
2022-07-12  3:45 ` Visuwesh
2022-07-12  8:27 ` Phil Sainty
2022-07-12  9:54   ` Stefan Kangas
2022-07-12 13:28     ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-07-12 13:29     ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2022-07-12 15:13     ` Drew Adams
2022-07-12 15:56       ` Stefan Kangas
2022-07-12 16:23         ` Drew Adams
2022-07-13  3:18           ` Richard Stallman
2022-07-13 16:47             ` Drew Adams
2022-07-13 22:58             ` Jean Louis
2022-07-15  3:34               ` Richard Stallman
2022-07-12 13:09 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2022-07-12 14:04   ` Stefan Kangas
2022-07-12 14:23     ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-07-12 14:36       ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-07-12 14:38       ` Stefan Kangas
2022-07-12 13:26 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors

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