phantom invasion and ghostly resistance

phantom invasion and ghostly resistance

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

The biggest army on the face of the Earth in land battles -
but up against stiff Ukrainian resistance!

Only there's no video whatsoever from these historic events
... and no accounts?

And Kiev is protected by a bunch of militias??!!

This is too much even for the famous Emacs fake news client,
Gnuf ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: phantom invasion and ghostly resistance

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-26 15:33]:
> The biggest army on the face of the Earth in land battles -
> but up against stiff Ukrainian resistance!
> 
> Only there's no video whatsoever from these historic events
> ... and no accounts?
> 
> And Kiev is protected by a bunch of militias??!!
> 
> This is too much even for the famous Emacs fake news client,
> Gnuf ...

Yes, though...

Let us keep this list friendly and welcoming to everybody regardless
of their ethnicity or other politics in the world, regardless if they
are Russian or Ukrainian, that we don't discriminate on our vague
understanding of the world politics.

In other words, let's stick to Emacs Lisp.

M-x launch 🚀

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Emacs history will rather tell old-school operation with
destabilization then force ... BLOODSHED

FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?

I say: it's wrong.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jacob Hrbek]

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 > FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?

I do and I've made a statement on that in
https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
aircraft that could be used as a drone.

On 2/27/22 00:57, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text
editor wrote:
> Emacs history will rather tell old-school operation with
> destabilization then force ... BLOODSHED
>
> FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
>
> I say: it's wrong.
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
>
--
Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine


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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Jacob Hrbek wrote:

>> FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
>
> I do and I've made a statement on that in
> https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
> reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
> to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
> verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
> aircraft that could be used as a drone.

Hm ...

I say just war is wrong.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jacob Hrbek]

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what do you propose then

On 2/27/22 01:17, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text
editor wrote:
> Jacob Hrbek wrote:
>
>>> FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
>> I do and I've made a statement on that in
>> https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
>> reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
>> to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
>> verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
>> aircraft that could be used as a drone.
> Hm ...
>
> I say just war is wrong.
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
>
--
Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine


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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Jacob Hrbek wrote:

> what do you propose then

Uhm ...

  FOSS Community says war is wrong

?

Don't know what heavyweights officially make up FOSS Community
but they have my vote :)

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Po Lu]

Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
<help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> Uhm ...
>
>   FOSS Community says war is wrong
>
> ?
>
> Don't know what heavyweights officially make up FOSS Community
> but they have my vote :)

How is this discourse related to Emacs?

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 27.02.2022 02:02, Jacob Hrbek wrote:
>  > FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
> 
> I do and I've made a statement on that in
> https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
> reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
> to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
> verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
> aircraft that could be used as a drone.

There is a lot of Free Software written by Russians that you are are 
almost certainly using. Maybe not entirely but at least in part.

And not all of us support this terrible, unjust war. There are anti-war 
protests all around the world, including Moscow and Saint-Petersburg.

There are certain kinds of software that are more problematic than 
others, though. For instance, face recognition software now currently 
used by Russian government on its citizens was at some point written by 
probably well-meaning developers. Given how quickly it has been 
retargeted at protestors, I don't think it's a good idea to have *any* 
country use such software. Though that ship has probably sailed.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Dmitry Gutov wrote:

>>> FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
>>
>> I do and I've made a statement on that in
>> https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short
>> taking steps to reduce russian access to my software and
>> hardware by revoking the right to use, study, improve and
>> distribute + considering to take identity verification and
>> vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source aircraft
>> that could be used as a drone.
>
> There is a lot of Free Software written by Russians that you
> are are almost certainly using. Maybe not entirely but at
> least in part.

Let's just say one should have the finger on the pulse of this
and come up with something good.

Punish broadly - no ...

One have a short slogan that the most people can agree
with ...

  Russia's war is wrong

is enough ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 0-a horo kaj 57:14 CET Emanuel Berg via Users list for 
the GNU Emacs text editor a écrit :
> Emacs history will rather tell old-school operation with
> destabilization then force ... BLOODSHED

i don’t get what you are talking about in that sentence, what is oldschool about, what 
destabilization are you talking about, etc.

> FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?

Good question, but wrongly phrased, because it’s ambiguous, and in these time ambiguity 
is no good, and can only go in the favor of whatever position is dominant at a given place.

People, especially the few most attained by putin’s propaganda, could believe you are on 
russian side, and ukraine or nato is responsible for the war, so they have to «stop» 
something for it to cease.

> I say: it's wrong.

Idk whether that’s really useful, afais, most of the planet condemn the agression of putin 
against ukraine, russians first.  That includes almost all countries (with noone, not even 
iran and china actually doing anything concrete in his favor), consensus among most 
populations, and almost all russian cities.  The only exceptions I saw are some out of reality 
indians with misplaced skeptikism, and extremely far right wing ppl (mostly neonazis), but 
they’re a minority.

Given this is not the first bordering country that joins nato, that no country supports him, 
that he’s gonna loose the power he won through oil (by betrailing opep), gas blackmailing 
(by successfully corrupting europe out of nuclear and into more gas despite global heating 
urgency), to me and most ppl I know, he just got senile and the few years he spent in his 
bunker exageratedly because of covid worsened the thing.  Idk then if anything rational 
(like condamnation) can help.

I think the only thing that can help ukraine rn is direct material or even military support 
(which for some reason otan still didn’t gave afaiu), economical sanctions will hurt russians 
more than putin and his thugs.

Given that, I take that in whatever circumstances, it’s reasonable to expect everybody 
already agrees on supporting ukraine.  To the point putting their flag anywhere will be 
taken as a symbol of freedom and antimilitarism more than the opposite, or even than any 
nationalism.

On the other hand, experience have shown that there may, or will, be some small mislead, 
trollish, minority that will be proputin, start disagreeing by spreading misplaced skepticism, 
asymetric neutrality, etc. and that most of the people will react ’till (useless) exhaustion, 
not realizing it’s only a minority, that convinces nobody, and wrongfully end up believing 
there’s some «half and half» division of opinions and sides… which is false.

So I propose to abandon the topic, unless some webmasters or maintainers have desire to 
follow the consensual and comforting trend of putting their flag anywhere in sign of 
support.  That’d be in line with our ideas of freedom.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Po Lu]

Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:

> So I propose to abandon the topic, unless some webmasters or
> maintainers have desire to follow the consensual and comforting trend
> of putting their flag anywhere in sign of support.  That’d be in line
> with our ideas of freedom.

The GNU project doesn't have any political opinions aside from that of
the free software movement.  I hope that includes not taking sides on
the conflict in the Ukraine, or otherwise I will not be able to continue
working on Emacs.

Also, why is this on help-gnu-emacs, instead of emacs-tangents or some
other more appropriate mailing list?

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 8:05 PM
> From: "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:
 
> > So I propose to abandon the topic, unless some webmasters or
> > maintainers have desire to follow the consensual and comforting trend
> > of putting their flag anywhere in sign of support.  That’d be in line
> > with our ideas of freedom.
 
 
I fully agree to abandon the topic. There is no justification to target 
people because of nationality as far as the Gnu Project is concerned.  
This happens because of a section of the community that are not aligned 
properly with the GNU Project.

In their personal capacity, they can do as they wish.

----- Christopher Dimech
Administrator General - Naiad Informatics - Gnu Project

Society has become too quick to pass judgement and declare someone
Persona Non-Grata, the most extreme form of censure a country can
bestow.

In a new era of destructive authoritarianism, I support Richard
Stallman.  Times of great crisis are also times of great
opportunity.  I call upon you to make this struggle yours as well !

https://stallmansupport.org/
https://www.fsf.org/     https://www.gnu.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 1-a horo kaj 18:33 CET Jacob Hrbek a 
écrit :
> what do you propose then

that’s trolling, as he was the one initiating the thread, literally suggesting 
something (issuing statements and condamnations).

but that’s also dosomethingite, as in a case where you can do nothing 
effective (well, technically you could walk to ukraine and help (if you trust 
your physical abilities enough), or send money there (if you’re rich 
enough)), you’re the one proposing bad ideas (literally proposing to stop 
doing free software in most free software place), and then asking to 
people what to do

it’s common to happen in most emotionally surprising and overwhelming 
situations, like during attentats, but it doesn’t help

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 2-a horo kaj 10:18 CET Dmitry Gutov a écrit :
> On 27.02.2022 02:02, Jacob Hrbek wrote:
> 
> 
> > > FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
> 
> 
> 
> > I do and I've made a statement on that in
> > https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
> > reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the
> > right
> > to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
> > verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
> > aircraft that could be used as a drone.
> 
> There is a lot of Free Software written by Russians that you are are
> almost certainly using. Maybe not entirely but at least in part.
> 
> And not all of us support this terrible, unjust war. There are anti-war
> protests all around the world, including Moscow and Saint-Petersburg.

Also most of siberia (Jekaterinburg, etc.)

> There are certain kinds of software that are more problematic than
> others, though. For instance, face recognition software now currently
> used by Russian government on its citizens was at some point written by
> probably well-meaning developers. Given how quickly it has been
> retargeted at protestors, I don't think it's a good idea to have *any*
> country use such software. Though that ship has probably sailed.

Well said, but none of that software is free, afaik (unfortunately for me, since I suffer 
prosopagnosia xD but anyway those software are not made to be trained, hosted and used 
by individuals)

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 9-a horo kaj 5:42 CET Po Lu a écrit :
> Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:
> > So I propose to abandon the topic, unless some webmasters or
> > maintainers have desire to follow the consensual and comforting trend
> > of putting their flag anywhere in sign of support.  That’d be in line
> > with our ideas of freedom.
> 
> The GNU project doesn't have any political opinions aside from that of
> the free software movement.  I hope that includes not taking sides on
> the conflict in the Ukraine, or otherwise I will not be able to continue
> working on Emacs.

Why require so hardly such neutrality? I mean other projects did so by the past (like 
supporting uyghurs or dunno, other geopolitical stuff) and that doesn’t stop from software 
freedom or contribution… to me that’s alike people stating anything personal (like «i like 
pasta», or dunno) or humor or what in projects: at least it makes it (nonpermanently) more 
personal and identifiable, maybe it even can increases contribution.

> Also, why is this on help-gnu-emacs, instead of emacs-tangents or some
> other more appropriate mailing list?

very good question, although unfortunately your statement, being more policy targetted, is 
likely more appropriated here :'D

Re: phantom invasion and ghostly resistance

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 2:36 AM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: phantom invasion and ghostly resistance
>
> * Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-26 15:33]:
> > The biggest army on the face of the Earth in land battles -
> > but up against stiff Ukrainian resistance!
> > 
> > Only there's no video whatsoever from these historic events
> > ... and no accounts?
> > 
> > And Kiev is protected by a bunch of militias??!!
> > 
> > This is too much even for the famous Emacs fake news client,
> > Gnuf ...
> 
> Yes, though...
> 
> Let us keep this list friendly and welcoming to everybody regardless
> of their ethnicity or other politics in the world, regardless if they
> are Russian or Ukrainian, that we don't discriminate on our vague
> understanding of the world politics.
> 
> In other words, let's stick to Emacs Lisp.
> 
> M-x launch 🚀
> 
> -- 
> Jean


M-x launch 🚀  Jean :)  Have a number of Russian friends, whose opinion
and actions are of no consequence to the conflict.  The problem is mainly
a problem between state functionaries.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 9-a horo kaj 39:37 
CET Christopher Dimech a écrit :
> In their personal capacity, they can do as they wish.

I really hoped and wish they can’t, even in their 
personal capacity, abandon software freedom and use 
their skills, and power granted to them by them and 
copyright, as a way of oppression(

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 8:58 PM
> From: "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 9-a horo kaj 39:37 
> CET Christopher Dimech a écrit :
> > In their personal capacity, they can do as they wish.
> 
> I really hoped and wish they can’t, even in their 
> personal capacity, abandon software freedom and use 
> their skills, and power granted to them by them and 
> copyright, as a way of oppression(
 

It is my wish and my blessing for the enlightenment about the realities
of the world, and becoming a positive influence as far as results are
concerned.  Wishful thinking and good intentions have never been enough.
We all have to evolve as human beings rather their repeating the same 
mistakes as our predecessors.

I have no doubt in my mind that the Russian-Ukranian conflict is of no
real consequence to the project itself.  Except for those with socialist
and communist leanings to reassess themselves.  I see too many with
ideological beliefs and would really like to see a day when 90% of the world
in joyful.  

I am old enough to remember the dissident activity across the socialist Eastern 
Bloc in the form of the Samizdat publications.  Russians will rise to this
occasion and evade official Soviet censorship.  


----- Christopher Dimech -----
Administrator General - Naiad Informatics - Gnu Project

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

----- Christopher Dimech
Administrator General - Naiad Informatics - Gnu Project

Society has become too quick to pass judgement and declare someone
Persona Non-Grata, the most extreme form of censure a country can
bestow.

In a new era of destructive authoritarianism, I support Richard
Stallman.  Times of great crisis are also times of great
opportunity.  I call upon you to make this struggle yours as well !

https://stallmansupport.org/
https://www.fsf.org/     https://www.gnu.org/


> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 8:53 PM
> From: "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 9-a horo kaj 5:42 CET Po Lu a écrit :
> > Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:
> > > So I propose to abandon the topic, unless some webmasters or
> > > maintainers have desire to follow the consensual and comforting trend
> > > of putting their flag anywhere in sign of support.  That’d be in line
> > > with our ideas of freedom.
> > 
> > The GNU project doesn't have any political opinions aside from that of
> > the free software movement.  I hope that includes not taking sides on
> > the conflict in the Ukraine, or otherwise I will not be able to continue
> > working on Emacs.
> 
> Why require so hardly such neutrality? I mean other projects did so by the past (like 
> supporting uyghurs or dunno, other geopolitical stuff) and that doesn’t stop from software 
> freedom or contribution… to me that’s alike people stating anything personal (like «i like 
> pasta», or dunno) or humor or what in projects: at least it makes it (nonpermanently) more 
> personal and identifiable, maybe it even can increases contribution.

The Chinese Communist Party is avoiding criticizing Russia's invasion of Ukraine.  It is
therefore unsurprising to encounter such propaganda here. 
 
> > Also, why is this on help-gnu-emacs, instead of emacs-tangents or some
> > other more appropriate mailing list?
> 
> very good question, although unfortunately your statement, being more policy targetted, is 
> likely more appropriated here :'D
>

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Po Lu]

Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:

> Why require so hardly such neutrality?

Because it's required by my employer.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 10:12 PM
> From: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> To: "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:
>
> > Why require so hardly such neutrality?

> Because it's required by my employer.

The Gnu Project does not take orders from your employer.

----- Christopher Dimech -----
Administrator General - Naiad Informatics - Gnu Project

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Po Lu]

Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

> The Gnu Project does not take orders from your employer.

See https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/Other-Politics.html,
which says:

  A GNU package should not seriously advocate any other political
  causes. Not that the GNU Project opposes those other causes. Rather,
  it is neutral on them, and GNU packages should be neutral too.

Anyway, I've been doing a great deal of work on Emacs lately.  It would
be a shame for that work to go to waste.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[tomas]

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On Sun, Feb 27, 2022 at 11:22:44AM +0100, Christopher Dimech wrote:

[...]

> > Because it's required by my employer.
> 
> The Gnu Project does not take orders from your employer.

You are not the Gnu project. Besides, your behaviour is

It is legitimate to be worried by whatever is going on
in the world at the moment (heck, I am, too). It is OK
to have an occassional off-topic post because of that.
It is NOT OK to unleash a monster thread about that, where
about three to four people (you know who you are) monopolize
bandwith and drain good-will here.

Were I the list admin, I'd already kicked you out until your
temper cools down. Luckily I am not.

Please, pretty please: take this to emacs-tangents.

Cheers
-- 
t

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 10:25 PM
> From: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
>
> > The Gnu Project does not take orders from your employer.
>
> See https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/Other-Politics.html,
> which says:
>
>   A GNU package should not seriously advocate any other political
>   causes. Not that the GNU Project opposes those other causes. Rather,
>   it is neutral on them, and GNU packages should be neutral too.
>
> Anyway, I've been doing a great deal of work on Emacs lately.  It would
> be a shame for that work to go to waste.

Have stated that the topic should not be progressed further.  I continue to work
with russian collaborators, irrespective of what happens.  You make good remark
but for the wrong reasons.  Be aware that threats have never yielded good results.
If your employer insists on things you disagree on, it is customary to provide
them with a rebuttal in writing.  Employers are bound not to discriminate based
on political association.

Christopher

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jacob Hrbek]

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 > There is a lot of Free Software written by Russians that you are are 
almost certainly using. Maybe not entirely but at least in part.  -- Gutov

I am slav with lot of russians and ukrainians friends you can't even 
imagine how much this hurts me to do this as someone who loves and uses 
Free Software in everything and who hates restrictions on privacy and 
freedom and who is endlessly appreciate of all the work that russian 
citizens did for Free Software and for me like all the helping that i 
got with issues including kindness of submitting a patches for a 
problems that i had, because I feel fucking sick and guilty, my mental 
health is in absolute shit and i didn't sleep for more then 3 hours a 
day since the war started blaming myself for all the work that i've done 
on Free Software and in Free Software Activism in the last ~14 years, 
because my work in Free Software contributed to the capability of 
russian military to do this war to bomb cities full of my brothers and 
sisters, killing newborns, children, elderly and committing war crimes 
against unarmed citizens scared for their life who are hiding at their 
homes.

 > And not all of us support this terrible, unjust war. There are 
anti-war protests all around the world, including Moscow and 
Saint-Petersburg. -- Gutov

Russian citizens have a major role in this war i know the cost of 
opposing putin in russia some of my family even experienced it first 
hand in what happened before the Velvet Revolution in Czechia, but it's 
no where near the cost that ukrainians are paying right now.

Please go join them and please convince others to do the same. The whole 
world supports ukrainians and the whole world will support russians 
overthrowing that war criminal in moscow, but there has to be more 
people doing the protests and calling on the russian forces to oppose 
their leader to do it.

On 2/27/22 02:10, Dmitry Gutov wrote:
> On 27.02.2022 02:02, Jacob Hrbek wrote:
>>   > FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
>>
>> I do and I've made a statement on that in
>> https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
>> reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
>> to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
>> verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
>> aircraft that could be used as a drone.
> There is a lot of Free Software written by Russians that you are are
> almost certainly using. Maybe not entirely but at least in part.
>
> And not all of us support this terrible, unjust war. There are anti-war
> protests all around the world, including Moscow and Saint-Petersburg.
>
> There are certain kinds of software that are more problematic than
> others, though. For instance, face recognition software now currently
> used by Russian government on its citizens was at some point written by
> probably well-meaning developers. Given how quickly it has been
> retargeted at protestors, I don't think it's a good idea to have *any*
> country use such software. Though that ship has probably sailed.

-- 
Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine


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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022 10-a horo kaj 51:49 CET, vous avez écrit :
> ----- Christopher Dimech
> Administrator General - Naiad Informatics - Gnu Project
> 
> Society has become too quick to pass judgement

why do you do that yourself here after then????
 
> > > The GNU project doesn't have any political opinions aside from that
> > > of
> > > the free software movement.  I hope that includes not taking sides
> > > on
> > > the conflict in the Ukraine, or otherwise I will not be able to
> > > continue working on Emacs.
> > 
> > Why require so hardly such neutrality? I mean other projects did so by
> > the past
>
> The Chinese Communist Party is avoiding criticizing Russia's invasion of
> Ukraine.  It is therefore unsurprising to encounter such propaganda
> here.

What does this have to do at all with china? I don’t like how you are linking Po Lu with that 
while he have shown to be greatly committed to the values of freedom, more than many 
ppl here.

Linking ppl opinions’ with their nationality is already what is fueling both russia’s 
aggression and the oppression of russians by both putin and the now mislead and hypocrit 
rest of the world, please don’t further that and what you were criticizing yourself

> Society has become too quick to pass judgement and declare someone
> Persona Non-Grata, the most extreme form of censure a country can
> bestow.
> 
> In a new era of destructive authoritarianism, I support Richard
> Stallman.  Times of great crisis are also times of great
> opportunity.  I call upon you to make this struggle yours as well !
> 
> https://stallmansupport.org/
> https://www.fsf.org/     https://www.gnu.org/

this is totally unrelated, and eastern people, among which undistinguishedly chineses, 
russians and ukrainians, were the one showing most support.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 11-a horo kaj 12:35 CET Po Lu a écrit :
> Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:
> > Why require so hardly such neutrality?
> 
> Because it's required by my employer.

ohhhh ok! that’s a really understandable and reasonable reason yes! I’m so 
sorry it is so, and hope you the best for future…

anyway neutrality is not materially supporting ukraine aggression, and as a free 
software we can’t do anything about that… (or people could maybe try to put 
stuff in elpa that would be useful to ukrainians’ resistence, but it would most 
likely (and better) be useful for others too anyway).

btw it makes me curious, who is your employer? are you salaree to work on 
emacs? :o if so that’s really cool :o

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 11-a horo kaj 22:44 CET Christopher Dimech a 
écrit :
> > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 10:12 PM
> > From: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> > To: "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
> > 
> > Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:
> > > Why require so hardly such neutrality?
> > 
> > Because it's required by my employer.
> 
> The Gnu Project does not take orders from your employer.

he didn’t give any order (HE takes order, because of the same shitty capitalism we 
all unfortunately live under), he simply stated we’re gonna loose a very good, 
committed and trustworthy maintainer if we do something we btw don’t really 
need to.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 10:52 PM
> From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> On Sun, Feb 27, 2022 at 11:22:44AM +0100, Christopher Dimech wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > > Because it's required by my employer.
> >
> > The Gnu Project does not take orders from your employer.
>
> You are not the Gnu project. Besides, your behaviour is

May I remind you that I form part of the Official Gnu Project with
authority being conferred to me.


> It is legitimate to be worried by whatever is going on
> in the world at the moment (heck, I am, too). It is OK
> to have an occassional off-topic post because of that.
> It is NOT OK to unleash a monster thread about that, where
> about three to four people (you know who you are) monopolize
> bandwith and drain good-will here.

> Were I the list admin, I'd already kicked you out until your
> temper cools down. Luckily I am not.

It is a sure thing that Gnu Admin is not in the habit to place
individuals as persona-non-grata as you are in the habit of doing.

You are free to comment nonetheless, and will not exert influence
in line with your attitude.

> Please, pretty please: take this to emacs-tangents.

> Cheers
> --
> t
>

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

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Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 11-a horo kaj 52:16 CET 
tomas@tuxteam.de a écrit :
> It is NOT OK to unleash a monster thread about that, where
> about three to four people (you know who you are) monopolize
> bandwith

that’s stretched: mail is notoriously economous

> Were I the list admin, I'd already kicked you out until your
> temper cools down. Luckily I am not.
> 
> Please, pretty please: take this to emacs-tangents.

good an’ effective replyto :'D

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 12-a horo kaj 15:22 CET Christopher Dimech a écrit :
> > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 10:25 PM
> > From: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> > To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, "Alexandre Garreau"
> > <galex-713@galex-713.eu> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
> 
> > Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
> 
> 
> > > The Gnu Project does not take orders from your employer.
> 
> 
> 
> > See https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/Other-Politics.html,
> > which says:
> > 
> > A GNU package should not seriously advocate any other political
> > causes. Not that the GNU Project opposes those other causes. Rather,
> > it is neutral on them, and GNU packages should be neutral too.
> > 
> > Anyway, I've been doing a great deal of work on Emacs lately.  It
> > would
> > be a shame for that work to go to waste.
> 
> Have stated that the topic should not be progressed further.  I continue
> to work with russian collaborators, irrespective of what happens.

Nobody from GNU ever told otherwise from keep working with russians.  Anyway most 
russians are against this aggression war too.

> You
> make good remark but for the wrong reasons.  Be aware that threats have
> never yielded good results.

But sometimes on short term you cannot escape it(

Also whole capitalism, controlling most of economy, work by threat: obey or you’ll loose 
your money and right to housing and feeding… or at least loose some privilege

> If your employer insists on things you
> disagree on, it is customary to provide them with a rebuttal in
> writing.  Employers are bound not to discriminate based on political
> association.

not in every country, if he was in china, it wouldn’t be so

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 11:18 PM
> From: "Jacob Hrbek" <kreyren@rixotstudio.cz>
> To: "Dmitry Gutov" <dgutov@yandex.ru>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
>  > There is a lot of Free Software written by Russians that you are are 
> almost certainly using. Maybe not entirely but at least in part.  -- Gutov
> 
> I am slav with lot of russians and ukrainians friends you can't even 
> imagine how much this hurts me to do this as someone who loves and uses 
> Free Software in everything and who hates restrictions on privacy and 
> freedom and who is endlessly appreciate of all the work that russian 
> citizens did for Free Software and for me like all the helping that i 
> got with issues including kindness of submitting a patches for a 
> problems that i had, because I feel fucking sick and guilty, my mental 
> health is in absolute shit and i didn't sleep for more then 3 hours a 
> day since the war started blaming myself for all the work that i've done 
> on Free Software and in Free Software Activism in the last ~14 years, 
> because my work in Free Software contributed to the capability of 
> russian military to do this war to bomb cities full of my brothers and 
> sisters, killing newborns, children, elderly and committing war crimes 
> against unarmed citizens scared for their life who are hiding at their 
> homes.

Your work benefits everybody, remember that.  Don't let guilt turn you
into a vegetable.  Am quite sure that you have not done much direct work
for Putin that helps him coordinate his plan better.

Please continue with your good work.
 

>  > And not all of us support this terrible, unjust war. There are 
> anti-war protests all around the world, including Moscow and 
> Saint-Petersburg. -- Gutov
> 
> Russian citizens have a major role in this war i know the cost of 
> opposing putin in russia some of my family even experienced it first 
> hand in what happened before the Velvet Revolution in Czechia, but it's 
> no where near the cost that ukrainians are paying right now.
> 
> Please go join them and please convince others to do the same. The whole 
> world supports ukrainians and the whole world will support russians 
> overthrowing that war criminal in moscow, but there has to be more 
> people doing the protests and calling on the russian forces to oppose 
> their leader to do it.
> 
> On 2/27/22 02:10, Dmitry Gutov wrote:
> > On 27.02.2022 02:02, Jacob Hrbek wrote:
> >>   > FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
> >>
> >> I do and I've made a statement on that in
> >> https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
> >> reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
> >> to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
> >> verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
> >> aircraft that could be used as a drone.
> > There is a lot of Free Software written by Russians that you are are
> > almost certainly using. Maybe not entirely but at least in part.
> >
> > And not all of us support this terrible, unjust war. There are anti-war
> > protests all around the world, including Moscow and Saint-Petersburg.
> >
> > There are certain kinds of software that are more problematic than
> > others, though. For instance, face recognition software now currently
> > used by Russian government on its citizens was at some point written by
> > probably well-meaning developers. Given how quickly it has been
> > retargeted at protestors, I don't think it's a good idea to have *any*
> > country use such software. Though that ship has probably sailed.
> 
> -- 
> Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine
> 
>

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 11:19 PM
> From: "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022 10-a horo kaj 51:49 CET, vous avez écrit :
> > ----- Christopher Dimech
> > Administrator General - Naiad Informatics - Gnu Project
> > 
> > Society has become too quick to pass judgement
> 
> why do you do that yourself here after then????
>  
> > > > The GNU project doesn't have any political opinions aside from that
> > > > of
> > > > the free software movement.  I hope that includes not taking sides
> > > > on
> > > > the conflict in the Ukraine, or otherwise I will not be able to
> > > > continue working on Emacs.
> > > 
> > > Why require so hardly such neutrality? I mean other projects did so by
> > > the past
> >
> > The Chinese Communist Party is avoiding criticizing Russia's invasion of
> > Ukraine.  It is therefore unsurprising to encounter such propaganda
> > here.
> 
> What does this have to do at all with china? I don’t like how you are linking Po Lu with that 
> while he have shown to be greatly committed to the values of freedom, more than many 
> ppl here.

His point was about not taking sides.  Which means not criticising the russian state. 
 
> Linking ppl opinions’ with their nationality is already what is fueling both russia’s 
> aggression and the oppression of russians by both putin and the now mislead and hypocrit 
> rest of the world, please don’t further that and what you were criticizing yourself

Was commenting on his employers as his motivation was employer related.  
 
> > Society has become too quick to pass judgement and declare someone
> > Persona Non-Grata, the most extreme form of censure a country can
> > bestow.
> > 
> > In a new era of destructive authoritarianism, I support Richard
> > Stallman.  Times of great crisis are also times of great
> > opportunity.  I call upon you to make this struggle yours as well !
> > 
> > https://stallmansupport.org/
> > https://www.fsf.org/     https://www.gnu.org/
> 
> this is totally unrelated, and eastern people, among which undistinguishedly chineses, 
> russians and ukrainians, were the one showing most support.

Correct.  Have not said anything against any of those people.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

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I’m redirecting this part of thread to tangent because this doesn’t have anything to do with 
emacs but with psychological solidarity (we all need to help each other the most possible 
during these times) with our community (and although it indeed is help to gnu emacs 
users’ it’s so… tangentially!)

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 12-a horo kaj 18:28 CET Jacob Hrbek a écrit :
>  > There is a lot of Free Software written by Russians that you are are
>  > 
> 
> almost certainly using. Maybe not entirely but at least in part.  --
> Gutov
 
> I am slav with lot of russians and ukrainians friends you can't even 
> imagine how much this hurts me to do this as someone who loves and uses
> 
> Free Software in everything and who hates restrictions on privacy and
> freedom and who is endlessly appreciate of all the work that russian
> citizens did for Free Software and for me like all the helping that i
> got with issues including kindness of submitting a patches for a
> problems that i had, because I feel fucking sick and guilty, my mental
> health is in absolute shit and i didn't sleep for more then 3 hours a
> day since the war started blaming myself for all the work that i've
> done on Free Software and in Free Software Activism in the last ~14
> years, because my work in Free Software contributed to the capability
> of russian military to do this war to bomb cities full of my brothers
> and sisters, killing newborns, children, elderly and committing war
> crimes against unarmed citizens scared for their life who are hiding at
> their homes.

That’s true not only for you but for any technical, scientifical, economical, etc. progress, 
unfortunately.  We can’t control everything… 

And I believe (if that can help) in the end the main and maybe almost only responsible is 
Putin, everyone else was lied to or threatened.

>  > And not all of us support this terrible, unjust war. There are 
> 
> anti-war protests all around the world, including Moscow and 
> Saint-Petersburg. -- Gutov
> 
> Russian citizens have a major role in this war i know the cost of 
> opposing putin in russia some of my family even experienced it first 
> hand in what happened before the Velvet Revolution in Czechia, but it's
> no where near the cost that ukrainians are paying right now.

That’s likely right, but asking people sacrificing to people far away is difficult, especially 
when a such war would have been difficult to predict in advance, and totally 
ununderstandable once it happened… it’s totally useless shit… Putin has just got mad.

Also I believe to suffer standing for freedom is somewhat easier psychologically than sitting 
in despair giving up… Ukrainians are showing great pride and attachment to their freedom, 
although in front of nato lack of help it would have been more logical to surrender in front 
of a higher power…

And during that time russians soldiers entering ukraine are discovering they were lied to 
and that ukrainians are freeer than them.  Some ukrainians already surrended (which, in 
front of bigger country, with no help, i can understand), but we still have to wait for the 
inevitable time a great part of russian army will surrender too.  It’s been almost all days 
since first day that almost no progress have been made by them, although russia is so 
much more enormous and rich than ukraine, and has so many military capabilities.  This is 
rejoying.

i don’t understand why nato doesn’t take the risk being bombed to help ukrainians.  
Ukrainians are not bombed right now, and I don’t believe the risk to be unjustly and 
exageratedly bombed is worth the cost of not being able to stand for freedom.  It would be 
also interesting to learn how ineffective, unreliable, old, etc. has the russian nuclear 
bombing program got.  If wide enough, it must implies many operators, and many of them 
must be able to circumvent censorship to discover they must disobey and save us too.

> Please go join them and please convince others to do the same. The whole
> world supports ukrainians and the whole world will support russians
> overthrowing that war criminal in moscow, but there has to be more
> people doing the protests and calling on the russian forces to oppose
> their leader to do it.

I’m part of those increasing number of ppl believing protests are getting more and more 
useless as people forgot what to do next, and leaders acknowledged that…

What should be needed would be to send material help there, money, maybe even to rob 
the states and rich in each country for that, and for russians to block anything materially 
providing for russian army or state controlled medias…

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 11:24 PM
> From: "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 11-a horo kaj 22:44 CET Christopher Dimech a 
> écrit :
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 10:12 PM
> > > From: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> > > To: "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
> > > 
> > > Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:
> > > > Why require so hardly such neutrality?
> > > 
> > > Because it's required by my employer.
> > 
> > The Gnu Project does not take orders from your employer.
> 
> he didn’t give any order (HE takes order, because of the same shitty capitalism we 
> all unfortunately live under), he simply stated we’re gonna loose a very good, 
> committed and trustworthy maintainer if we do something we btw don’t really 
> need to.

No, but his employer does. We can all screw our employers and continue with the work,
covertly if necessary.  I had such problems in france but continued to work anyway.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Po Lu]

Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

> Be aware that threats have never yielded good results.

I wasn't threatening anyone.

> If your employer insists on things you disagree on, it is customary to
> provide them with a rebuttal in writing.  Employers are bound not to
> discriminate based on political association.

That's not possible for me.  Anyway, this isn't your or my decision to
make, but I hope the Emacs maintainers will not put me into such a
difficult position by taking sides on this conflict.  (Whether that of
Russia or that of the Ukraine.)

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org,  Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2022 19:48:44 +0800
> 
> That's not possible for me.  Anyway, this isn't your or my decision to
> make, but I hope the Emacs maintainers will not put me into such a
> difficult position by taking sides on this conflict.  (Whether that of
> Russia or that of the Ukraine.)

None of the people who spoke on this subject here represents the Emacs
maintainers or the Emacs project.

And I agree that this is off-topic here (or anywhere on Emacs-related
lists, actually).  I urge everyone to please stop using this list for
this topic.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 11:31 PM
> From: "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> To: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>, "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 12-a horo kaj 15:22 CET Christopher Dimech a écrit :
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 10:25 PM
> > > From: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> > > To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, "Alexandre Garreau"
> > > <galex-713@galex-713.eu> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
> > 
> > > Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
> > 
> > 
> > > > The Gnu Project does not take orders from your employer.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > See https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/Other-Politics.html,
> > > which says:
> > > 
> > > A GNU package should not seriously advocate any other political
> > > causes. Not that the GNU Project opposes those other causes. Rather,
> > > it is neutral on them, and GNU packages should be neutral too.
> > > 
> > > Anyway, I've been doing a great deal of work on Emacs lately.  It
> > > would
> > > be a shame for that work to go to waste.
> > 
> > Have stated that the topic should not be progressed further.  I continue
> > to work with russian collaborators, irrespective of what happens.
> 
> Nobody from GNU ever told otherwise from keep working with russians.  Anyway most 
> russians are against this aggression war too.

Not officially from Gnu, but from others who contact me personally.
 
> > You
> > make good remark but for the wrong reasons.  Be aware that threats have
> > never yielded good results.
> 
> But sometimes on short term you cannot escape it(
> 
> Also whole capitalism, controlling most of economy, work by threat: obey or you’ll loose 
> your money and right to housing and feeding… or at least loose some privilege
> 
> > If your employer insists on things you
> > disagree on, it is customary to provide them with a rebuttal in
> > writing.  Employers are bound not to discriminate based on political
> > association.
> 
> not in every country, if he was in china, it wouldn’t be so
> 
>

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Po Lu]

Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

> We can all screw our employers and continue with the work, covertly if
> necessary.

That's a risk most people are not willing to take.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 11:53 PM
> From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> > From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org,  Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> > Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2022 19:48:44 +0800
> >
> > That's not possible for me.  Anyway, this isn't your or my decision to
> > make, but I hope the Emacs maintainers will not put me into such a
> > difficult position by taking sides on this conflict.  (Whether that of
> > Russia or that of the Ukraine.)
>
> None of the people who spoke on this subject here represents the Emacs
> maintainers or the Emacs project.
>
> And I agree that this is off-topic here (or anywhere on Emacs-related
> lists, actually).  I urge everyone to please stop using this list for
> this topic.

I fully agree for a stop on this topic.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jacob Hrbek]

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it annoys me to me to say this as i hate US culture, but If it was me 
then i would take trucks and cars to make a convoy all over the country 
as just small number of people can have a major impact as it was seen in 
canada recently..

I don't believe that being peaceful has any meaning in russia so be 
violent break property, set cars on fire, make makeshift road blocks 
disrupt economy anything is better then nothing, the more you do the 
more likely it gets for people all over russia and belarus to do the same.

On 2/27/22 12:45, Alexandre Garreau wrote:
>
> I’m part of those increasing number of ppl believing protests are 
> getting more and more useless as people forgot what to do next, and 
> leaders acknowledged that…
>
-- 
Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 11:48 PM
> From: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
>
> > Be aware that threats have never yielded good results.
>
> I wasn't threatening anyone.
>
> > If your employer insists on things you disagree on, it is customary to
> > provide them with a rebuttal in writing.  Employers are bound not to
> > discriminate based on political association.
>
> That's not possible for me.  Anyway, this isn't your or my decision to
> make, but I hope the Emacs maintainers will not put me into such a
> difficult position by taking sides on this conflict.  (Whether that of
> Russia or that of the Ukraine.)

Our policy is only to align with the free software movement, nothing else.
Please bare with us when others start campaigning for actions we disagree
to do.  I have refused to make any official statements.  Hope it works for
you.  If there are problems, please let me know.


Felicitations
Christopher

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 12-a horo kaj 
48:31 CET Christopher Dimech a écrit :
> No, but his employer does. We can all screw our 
employers and continue
> with the work, covertly if necessary.  I had such 
problems in france
> but continued to work anyway.

France is very liberal on that perspect because we are 
used to act that way, but that’s not that general

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 12-a horo kaj 48:44 CET Po Lu a écrit :
> hristopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
> 
> 
> 
> > Be aware that threats have never yielded good results.
> 
> I wasn't threatening anyone.

I think he meant about your employer threatening you (or the project you benefit to, 
indirectly), at least that’s how I understood

> > If your employer insists on things you disagree on, it is customary to
> > provide them with a rebuttal in writing.  Employers are bound not to
> > discriminate based on political association.
> 
> That's not possible for me.  Anyway, this isn't your or my decision to
> make, but I hope the Emacs maintainers will not put me into such a
> difficult position by taking sides on this conflict.  (Whether that of
> Russia or that of the Ukraine.)

I hope neither

(nobody will take side of putin)

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-27 14:52]:
> And I believe (if that can help) in the end the main and maybe
> almost only responsible is Putin, everyone else was lied to or
> threatened.

I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin to
be the cause. But it is not cause.

You have to review history of Ukraine and how Germany installed
organizations back in time, history of anti-semitism in Ukraine,
including history of Ukrainian Nazism. Since Germany wanted to
overthrow emperor of Russia back in time, Ukraine is used by western
forces as place for fighting. People have been suffering in that area
for decades while politicians in other countries only care to
influence Russia through conflicts in Ukraina.

I do not condone ANY war. I am against any wars.

> That’s likely right, but asking people sacrificing to people far
> away is difficult, especially when a such war would have been
> difficult to predict in advance, and totally ununderstandable once
> it happened… it’s totally useless shit… Putin has just got mad.

It was maybe for you individually difficult to predict. It was planned
and manipulated since many years by West in order to minimize power of
East. Ukrainian Nazis have been sponsored by US congress. Why would US
congress sponsor Ukrainian Nazis? Of course with purpose to manipulate
political situations in other countries. 

I see and take US presidents, US congress, Western politicians and
Putin; all together; and Ukrainian politicians and their neglect of
legality in their own country as accountable for what is going on in
Ukraine, as they have made that scenario. 

More references for people to get better understanding of recent
history in Ukraine:

US Congress stops funding for Ukraine's war-criminal, neo-Nazi Azov Battalion -- Puppet Masters -- Sott.net
https://www.sott.net/article/350064-US-Congress-stops-funding-for-Ukraines-war-criminal-neo-Nazi-Azov-Battalion

The Terrorists Among US11 Azov Battalion and American Congressional Support | The Vineyard of the Saker
https://thesaker.is/the-terrorists-among-us11-azov-battalion-and-american-congressional-support/

Canadian Armed Forces providing military training to Ukrainian neo-Nazis - World Socialist Web Site
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/12/03/uknz-d03.html

Praise Of Ukrainian Neo-Nazi Battalion Given Green Light By Facebook: Intercept | ZeroHedge
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/praise-ukrainian-neo-nazi-battalion-given-green-light-facebook-intercept

Azov Battalion - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Collaboration in German-occupied Ukraine - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Ukraine#Ukrainian_National_Committee

Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem | Reuters
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY

> Also I believe to suffer standing for freedom is somewhat easier
> psychologically than sitting in despair giving up… Ukrainians are
> showing great pride and attachment to their freedom, although in
> front of nato lack of help it would have been more logical to
> surrender in front of a higher power…

Majority of Ukrainians DO NOT WANT criminals such as terrorists of
Azov Battalion operating in their country. Thus "freedom" is related
to peace, and that peace has been sabotaged over and over again from
inside of Ukraine.

Ukraine must stop ongoing abuses and war crimes by pro-Ukrainian volunteer forces - Amnesty International
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/09/ukraine-must-stop-ongoing-abuses-and-war-crimes-pro-ukrainian-volunteer-forces/

When you look at the situation which is taking place without looking
into history and background, then of course one will come to such
conclusions related to solidarity, freedom, Puting is bad and so
on. That is all logical.

But if you look into history and information on what is really going
on and which crime have been committed in Ukraine by those Neo-Nazis
and that their justice system does not protect people -- then one can
understand that other country such as Russia comes to help. I do not
condone neither approve that kind of "help" -- but what is sure is
that Western countries approved Neo-Nazis, supported them financially
with the help to destabilize Russia, with the intend to install NATO
in Ukraine; and Western politicians DID NOTHING to help victims of
Neo-Nazis. Amnesty International cannot do it alone. 

Now Putin comes to "save people" -- what is there so much different
than what US did in Iraq, Syria, Vietnam, and many other countries?

I do not condone war, I am for peace. But when you reason, then take
all facts in consideration.

> i don’t understand why nato doesn’t take the risk being bombed to
> help ukrainians.  

Russia as country does not attack Ukrainians. Definitely not. There
are innocent victims and I do not approve of that. War is the worse
insanity on the planet. How I see the situation, Russia is "helping"
the fellow new nation -- and it seem to me not possible that Russian
military wants to attack Ukrainian people as such; they have their
targets and this I understand, but Russia and Ukraine are so much
connected, I could even say they are so much similar to each other and
share culture and history. Their families are intertwined. I never was
thinking of Ukrainian people as being so much different from
Russians. It is very hard for me to think that "Russia" attacks
"Ukrainian" for reasons of being Ukrainian. 

What I see is that Russia is concerned for crimes in Ukraine not being
handled by Ukrainian themselves; now they have military intervention.

That Uganda has sent recently troops in Congo to fight rebels is very
similar situation; one could simply say that Uganda occupied parts of
Congo with purpose to exterminate rebels; and world is not talking
about it. But why? Because it does not help the Western politics;
Russia is not close to Congo; there is no purpose for US and NATO to
get into it. There is no benefit neither interest. Though situation is
quite similar. And people in Congo welcome Ugandan military
intervention, they have got enough of terrorism.

So it is in Ukraine, there are thousands of people in Ukraine
welcoming the intervention and fight against internal terrorism.

> What should be needed would be to send material help there, money,
> maybe even to rob the states and rich in each country for that, and
> for russians to block anything materially providing for russian army
> or state controlled medias…

Law and order is what is needed. Ukrainian politicians internally have
to commit to law and order, to respect human rights without
discrimination. Would that be enacted, there would be no military
intervention now.

And I repeat, I am against any war, and I like Russians and Ukrainian
equally; and any refugee is free to ask me for accommodation.

Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 27.02.2022 13:18, Jacob Hrbek wrote:
> Please go join them and please convince others to do the same. The whole 
> world supports ukrainians and the whole world will support russians 
> overthrowing that war criminal in moscow, but there has to be more 
> people doing the protests and calling on the russian forces to oppose 
> their leader to do it.

I've been living outside of Russia for the last several years, but I'm 
doing what I can to help and educate fellow citizens as well.

One final point I wanted to make: there is little use fighting against 
illegal actors, against human rights abusers, using software licenses.

Copyright licenses are a tool for the civilized world. If someone is 
intent on committing a crime (moreso if it's a government agency), they 
will even more easily violate whatever conditions you will try to impose 
on your freely distributed software.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2022 at 6:31 AM
> From: "Dmitry Gutov" <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> To: "Jacob Hrbek" <kreyren@rixotstudio.cz>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> On 27.02.2022 13:18, Jacob Hrbek wrote:
> > Please go join them and please convince others to do the same. The whole
> > world supports ukrainians and the whole world will support russians
> > overthrowing that war criminal in moscow, but there has to be more
> > people doing the protests and calling on the russian forces to oppose
> > their leader to do it.

> I've been living outside of Russia for the last several years, but I'm
> doing what I can to help and educate fellow citizens as well.

> One final point I wanted to make: there is little use fighting against
> illegal actors, against human rights abusers, using software licenses.

> Copyright licenses are a tool for the civilized world. If someone is
> intent on committing a crime (moreso if it's a government agency), they
> will even more easily violate whatever conditions you will try to impose
> on your freely distributed software.

You are absolutely right Dmitry.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@rixotstudio.cz> [2022-02-27 03:04]:
> > FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
> 
> I do and I've made a statement on that in
> https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
> reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
> to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
> verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
> aircraft that could be used as a drone.

This list is not for promotion of proprietary software. 

Condemning citizens of single country for what their political leaders
do is wrong.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

butterfly effect

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-27 03:18]:
> Jacob Hrbek wrote:
> 
> >> FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
> >
> > I do and I've made a statement on that in
> > https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
> > reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
> > to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
> > verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
> > aircraft that could be used as a drone.
> 
> Hm ...
> 
> I say just war is wrong.

😆 You said wor is wrong, and now you got proprietary software
creation. 

It is butterfly effect.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> [2022-02-27 04:11]:
> There is a lot of Free Software written by Russians that you are are almost
> certainly using. Maybe not entirely but at least in part.

Including in Emacs. And I hope to see more of both Russians and
Ukrainian, contributing to Emacs, including from every person in the
world.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@rixotstudio.cz> [2022-02-27 14:20]:
> I am slav with lot of russians and ukrainians friends you can't even imagine
> how much this hurts me to do this as someone who loves and uses Free
> Software in everything and who hates restrictions on privacy and freedom and
> who is endlessly appreciate of all the work that russian citizens did for
> Free Software and for me like all the helping that i got with issues
> including kindness of submitting a patches for a problems that i had,
> because I feel fucking sick and guilty, my mental health is in absolute shit
> and i didn't sleep for more then 3 hours a day since the war started blaming
> myself for all the work that i've done on Free Software and in Free Software
> Activism in the last ~14 years, because my work in Free Software contributed
> to the capability of russian military to do this war to bomb cities full of
> my brothers and sisters, killing newborns, children, elderly and committing
> war crimes against unarmed citizens scared for their life who are hiding at
> their homes.

😳 Bad. That is the effect of not reading and not understanding fully
the meanings of free software.

From:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

,----
| The freedom to run the program as you wish
`----

That includes the freedom to do malicious things with
software. Anything illegal, malicious, it is handled by government
laws. They already forbid crimes. 

Imagine software being metal known as STEEL. You can do bridges with
it, and you can construct military weapon.

Software is like that, it can be a game and it can be weapon too.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> [2022-02-27 21:33]:
> Copyright licenses are a tool for the civilized world. If someone is intent
> on committing a crime (moreso if it's a government agency), they will even
> more easily violate whatever conditions you will try to impose on your
> freely distributed software.

Exactly.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-27 12:26]:
> Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 9-a horo kaj 5:42 CET Po Lu a écrit :
> > Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:
> > > So I propose to abandon the topic, unless some webmasters or
> > > maintainers have desire to follow the consensual and comforting trend
> > > of putting their flag anywhere in sign of support.  That’d be in line
> > > with our ideas of freedom.
> > 
> > The GNU project doesn't have any political opinions aside from that of
> > the free software movement.  I hope that includes not taking sides on
> > the conflict in the Ukraine, or otherwise I will not be able to continue
> > working on Emacs.
> 
> Why require so hardly such neutrality? I mean other projects did so by the past (like 
> supporting uyghurs or dunno, other geopolitical stuff) and that doesn’t stop from software 
> freedom or contribution… to me that’s alike people stating anything personal (like «i like 
> pasta», or dunno) or humor or what in projects: at least it makes it (nonpermanently) more 
> personal and identifiable, maybe it even can increases contribution.

Imagine if humanitarian organizations such as red cross or Amnesty
International would deny their help based on ethnicity or political
opinions of people who need such help.

FSF is non-profit organization and it has social purpose to help with
free software. It does not take sides in politics of the world.

Individual members may do so. 

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jacob Hrbek]

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 > This list is not for promotion of proprietary software.

One thing is promotion of proprietary software the other is the
promotion of freedom for which we dedicated our effort to do

It can _NOT_ be called a Free Software and Free Hardware Designs if it's
used to circumvent the Freedom for 43 _MILLION_ people (that's 43 000
000 people!) by violence, war crimes and death.

What i argue for is to enforce the values on which we found Free
Software instead of being ignorant and dedicating more resources in this
namely the second part that majority of Free Software advocates and
developers comfortably prefer to not exist:

  * Freedom 2: The freedom to /redistribute/ and make copies _so you can
    help your neighbour_

How can you even argue that we are helping our neighbour here? We are
enabling this violent war criminal who wages the war on freedom with the
threat of a nuclear missiles on the European Union member countries and
invasion of finland and swed
en to kill us and our neighbours and worse
in my case my slav brothers and sisters.

Each minute that we hesitate on the subject is a minute of resources
that we gift to russia to continue in this by maintaining their
technological infrastructure.

 > Condemning citizens of single country for what their political
leaders do is wrong.

I am not condemning, i even praised my brothers and sisters in russia
who take a huge risks to oppose putin by staging mass protests across
russian federation as "The Heroes of
Russia"[https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107875192175864676] multiple times and
i do whatever i can to support them.

On 2/28/22 10:16, Jean Louis wrote:
> This list is not for promotion of proprietary software.

--
Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Max Brieiev]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
> then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin to
> be the cause. But it is not cause.

I am a Ukrainian, speaking Russian, living in Kyiv. What you say is a
complete propaganda. You know, 60% of population in Kyiv speaks
Russian. And yet, we hate those "leberators" that are coming into our
land.

It's much less complicated than you are trying to pose here. We are on
our land and we will defend it, we are fighting for our freedom. This is
as simple as that. Ukraine is as united as it had never been before the
war started.

Leave your tales about nazis to someone, who is as brainwashed as
you. The problem of nazis in Ukraine is no bigger than in other European
countries. It is heavily exaggerated by Russion propaganda. There are
some nazi groups, of course, but they are not prominent at all.

Just look at Sumy, Chernihiv, Kharkiv, Mariupol, Kherson. Those cities
are right to the Russian border, like less than 100 kms. Those are
cities, where the majority speaks Russian. Nonetheless, Russian troops
have very hard times to conquere *any* of those cities. They thought
they would be welcomed here with flowers, but instead they are welcomed
with molotov coctails and guerilla warfare. Nobody takes a shit of this
nazi bullshit.

Zelensky is a jew, and he is a native Russian speaker. So whom are they
going to liberate here, if a Russian speaking jew is our president?

That is all I wanted to say. I am not going to comment all other
nonsense of your lengthy post.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Yuri Khan]

On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 at 18:18, Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@rixotstudio.cz> wrote:

> I feel fucking sick and guilty, my mental
> health is in absolute shit and i didn't sleep for more then 3 hours a
> day since the war started blaming myself for all the work that i've done
> on Free Software and in Free Software Activism in the last ~14 years,
> because my work in Free Software contributed to the capability of
> russian military to do this war to bomb cities full of my brothers and
> sisters, killing newborns, children, elderly and committing war crimes
> against unarmed citizens scared for their life who are hiding at their
> homes.

One of my former colleagues once said, metaphorically: “I have made a
screwdriver. It can drive a screw, or it can be poked into an eye.”
The point being, don’t blame yourself for misuse/abuse of the tools
you make.

> >> I do and I've made a statement on that in
> >> https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
> >> reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
> >> to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
> >> verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
> >> aircraft that could be used as a drone.

I might not have got it right, but if you’re thinking of denying
access by citizenship, that’s awfully misguided.

Our [Russian] government does that kind of thing. “This web site here
has a page that contains banned information. Since TLS protects the
exact URL from being seen by the Internet provider, we’re going to
deny you access to the whole site. And if your provider cannot snoop
SNI, then they can deny you access by IP address, thus including all
other sites hosted on the same server.” Along the same lines: “KMnO4
is useful as an antiseptic, but it also can be used to synthesize
narcotics or explosives, so no, you cannot buy it from your local
pharmacy.” Basically, prevention of activities that are declared
unlawful is considered a higher priority than keeping lawful use
possible, no matter the ratio of harm to usefulness.

Please consider not being like them.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Po Lu]

Please take this discussion to emacs-tangents.  Or some even more
appropriate list (maybe gnu-misc-discuss?)

Freedom zero must be absolute, even to people whose political ideals you
disagree with.  See
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/programs-must-not-limit-freedom-to-run.html.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jacob Hrbek]

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 > One of my former colleagues once said, metaphorically: “I have made a 
screwdriver. It can drive a screw, or it can be poked into an eye.” The 
point being, don’t blame yourself for misuse/abuse of the tools you 
make. -- Khan

Ask him if he can use a screw driver to blow up a pipeline and mass 
murdering of people that can't defend against it.

 > I might not have got it right, but if you’re thinking of denying 
access by citizenship, that’s awfully misguided. - Khan

To anyone who will enable russian government to use it.

---

Your argument that we shouldn't deny access to all free software to 
russians is valid. I am mainly concerned about things that can be used 
to do major war crimes

On 2/28/22 13:12, Yuri Khan wrote:
> One of my former colleagues once said, metaphorically: “I have made a
> screwdriver. It can drive a screw, or it can be poked into an eye.”
> The point being, don’t blame yourself for misuse/abuse of the tools
> you make.

-- 
Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine


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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Max Brieiev <max.brieiev@gmail.com> [2022-02-28 15:01]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
> > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin to
> > be the cause. But it is not cause.
> 
> I am a Ukrainian, speaking Russian, living in Kyiv. What you say is a
> complete propaganda. You know, 60% of population in Kyiv speaks
> Russian. And yet, we hate those "leberators" that are coming into our
> land.

That I said "I don't think so" is propaganda?

That "political situation is more complicated than person stated" --
that is propaganda?

That we shall accuse Putin solely for conflict -- is propaganda?

You my friend you twist words. That is my opinion, not propaganda. I
have no resources to make any propaganda, neither I am hired by
Ukrainian nor Russians, neither related directly or indirectly, apart
from my grandgrandfather who was Ukrainian.

And of course nobody likes war. I have used "save" or "help" under
quotes to indicate a meaning, meaning that I am quoting it and not
necessarily condining it. I have stated multiple times for people not
to misunderstand me that I am against any wars.

Communication is the key.

People lack communication skills and negotiation skills. 

Little friendship and love can solve it all.

> It's much less complicated than you are trying to pose here. We are
> on our land and we will defend it, we are fighting for our
> freedom. This is as simple as that. Ukraine is as united as it had
> never been before the war started.

Then you must be very young person. 

Thinking in simplicities is what said propaganda wants you to do. Take
young boys and die for country.

Shit.

I recommend you and your family to depart, situation will be better,
Russia will not take Ukraine, but don't participate in bloody war for
patriotic reasons. Defend your family by putting them in safe place.

> Leave your tales about nazis to someone, who is as brainwashed as
> you. The problem of nazis in Ukraine is no bigger than in other
> European countries. It is heavily exaggerated by Russion
> propaganda. There are some nazi groups, of course, but they are not
> prominent at all.

And I am the one spreading propaganda? LOL 🤓

> Just look at Sumy, Chernihiv, Kharkiv, Mariupol, Kherson. Those
> cities are right to the Russian border, like less than 100
> kms. Those are cities, where the majority speaks
> Russian. Nonetheless, Russian troops have very hard times to
> conquere *any* of those cities. They thought they would be welcomed
> here with flowers, but instead they are welcomed with molotov
> coctails and guerilla warfare. Nobody takes a shit of this nazi
> bullshit.

Maybe that is the problem that nobody took shit of this nazi bullshit
in time. 

I see my friend, you are biased. 

Do you want to say that Amnesty International did not well research
before they published this:

Ukraine must stop ongoing abuses and war crimes by pro-Ukrainian volunteer forces - Amnesty International
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/09/ukraine-must-stop-ongoing-abuses-and-war-crimes-pro-ukrainian-volunteer-forces/

Do you want to say that human rights abuses in Ukraine are none? That
it is nothing, never happened?

And that would imply that Putin is really mad men and is now coming to
attack Ukraine for which real reason? You tell us please.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2022 at 11:46 PM
> From: "Jacob Hrbek" <kreyren@rixotstudio.cz>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Cc: "Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>, "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
>  > This list is not for promotion of proprietary software.
>
> One thing is promotion of proprietary software the other is the
> promotion of freedom for which we dedicated our effort to do
>
> It can _NOT_ be called a Free Software and Free Hardware Designs if it's
> used to circumvent the Freedom for 43 _MILLION_ people (that's 43 000
> 000 people!) by violence, war crimes and death.
>
> What i argue for is to enforce the values on which we found Free
> Software instead of being ignorant and dedicating more resources in this
> namely the second part that majority of Free Software advocates and
> developers comfortably prefer to not exist:
>
>   * Freedom 2: The freedom to /redistribute/ and make copies _so you can
>     help your neighbour_
>
> How can you even argue that we are helping our neighbour here? We are
> enabling this violent war criminal who wages the war on freedom with the
> threat of a nuclear missiles on the European Union member countries and
> invasion of finland and swed
> en to kill us and our neighbours and worse
> in my case my slav brothers and sisters.
>
> Each minute that we hesitate on the subject is a minute of resources
> that we gift to russia to continue in this by maintaining their
> technological infrastructure.
>
>  > Condemning citizens of single country for what their political
> leaders do is wrong.
>
> I am not condemning, i even praised my brothers and sisters in russia
> who take a huge risks to oppose putin by staging mass protests across
> russian federation as "The Heroes of
> Russia"[https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107875192175864676] multiple times and
> i do whatever i can to support them.
>
> On 2/28/22 10:16, Jean Louis wrote:
> > This list is not for promotion of proprietary software.
>
> --
> Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine

Dear friends, it has been agreed to stop discussing the topic.  We
do not see how words and declarations can make real difference in
the matter.  All we can do is better ourself as individuals, growing
a community that is not based on borders set by governments.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> [2022-02-28 15:13]:
> Our [Russian] government does that kind of thing. “This web site here
> has a page that contains banned information. Since TLS protects the
> exact URL from being seen by the Internet provider, we’re going to
> deny you access to the whole site. And if your provider cannot snoop
> SNI, then they can deny you access by IP address, thus including all
> other sites hosted on the same server.” Along the same lines: “KMnO4
> is useful as an antiseptic, but it also can be used to synthesize
> narcotics or explosives, so no, you cannot buy it from your local
> pharmacy.” Basically, prevention of activities that are declared
> unlawful is considered a higher priority than keeping lawful use
> possible, no matter the ratio of harm to usefulness.

Hmm, yes.

Though one can use proxies and VPN, right?

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@rixotstudio.cz> [2022-02-28 15:53]:
> Your argument that we shouldn't deny access to all free software to russians
> is valid. I am mainly concerned about things that can be used to do major
> war crimes

I think you look at wrong causes.

For products like software you cannot possibly know for what they will
be used.

And you cannot "forbid" it really. 

For example, US could produce some weapons and sell such weapons to
country X with condition NOT to sell weapons to country Y. Though
country X eventually sells it to country Y. It is difficult to forbid
selling weapons unspoken how difficult it would be to find out who
used software and under which circumstances. 

To win in the court you would need proofs, and which court will go
after whatever generals in far countries where you do not have
jurisdiction. You would need to go into that country or hire attorney
in that country to represent your copyrights, that means you would
still need to communicate to people related to bloody enemy who used
your software; then you would spend money and be subjugated to their
laws; and you would need to prove that software was used under terms
not given by you. 

Good luck with it.

However, if you do change licenses to your software, that software
becomes proprietary.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

I don't know if the Ukrainian army is really fighting back or
not, and the invasion sure didn't look the way we expected,
but that doesn't make it any less an invasion.

And moreover, so what? No matter how clever a scheme this
turns out to be it is still wrong ...

RUSSIA'S WAR IS WRONG!

PS. This sure doesn't happen every day BTW. The major FOSS
    bodies should absolutely say something, just anything
    really with the position they/we are opposed to it!

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

Why don't we hear _anything_ from the Ukrainian army from day
1 and still nothing?

Is it really fighting back and this has been
completely hidden?

And if it is why is it so important not to show any of it?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Christopher Dimech wrote:

> Dear friends, it has been agreed to stop discussing the
> topic. We do not see how words and declarations can make
> real difference in the matter.

They can, in the short and long run.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Samuel Banya]

Does no one else realize that there are good people in both countries that benefit from Emacs?

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022, at 8:22 AM, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor wrote:
> I don't know if the Ukrainian army is really fighting back or
> not, and the invasion sure didn't look the way we expected,
> but that doesn't make it any less an invasion.
> 
> And moreover, so what? No matter how clever a scheme this
> turns out to be it is still wrong ...
> 
> RUSSIA'S WAR IS WRONG!
> 
> PS. This sure doesn't happen every day BTW. The major FOSS
>     bodies should absolutely say something, just anything
>     really with the position they/we are opposed to it!
> 
> -- 
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
> 
> 
> 

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le lundo, 28-a de februaro 2022, 12-a horo kaj 46:56 CET Jacob Hrbek a écrit :
>  > This list is not for promotion of proprietary software.
> 
> One thing is promotion of proprietary software the other is the
> promotion of freedom for which we dedicated our effort to do

since the matter (software freedom) is complex, you can do both at the same time

> It can _NOT_ be called a Free Software and Free Hardware Designs if it's
> used to circumvent the Freedom for 43 _MILLION_ people (that's 43 000
> 000 people!) by violence, war crimes and death.

It can, and it would, but nobody have shown any example of this happening (like a specific 
example of a software used by putin’s army).

If freedom of circulation was used to help a soldier, would you stop calling that freedom of 
circulation? same for freedom of speech? freedom of belief? etc. etc. etc.

You cannot unilaterally decide words have no meaning anymore, or your arbitrary one, on 
the mere basis oppression exists somewhere.

> What i argue for is to enforce the values on which we found Free
> Software

Free Software still is full of communists, with many important people being procapitalism 
socdems, and an overrepresentation even among neonazis: the movement is politically 
very diverse, and the values are difficult to widden further.  To me, for instance, the link to 
anarchocommunism is obvious, but i’m also in the best position to observe it’s not to most: 
otherwise you wouldn’t disagree.

So that’s useless.

You are arguing for the same discursive diversion Ethical Licenses have, on the ground it is 
fair to use oppression (given by the modern power that modern copyright, elitism and 
technological opacity enables) to fight oppression.  I swear this is the EXACT same mindset 
that is enabling russian soldiers to believe they’re fighting for freedom right now in 
ukraine.

> instead of being ignorant and dedicating more resources in this
> namely the second part that majority of Free Software advocates and
> developers comfortably prefer to not exist:
> 
>   * Freedom 2: The freedom to /redistribute/ and make copies _so you can
> help your neighbour_
> 
> How can you even argue that we are helping our neighbour here?

Since neighboors are numerous and politically diverse, it is obvious in case of conflict 
helping one neighboor is harming another, and vice versa, harming a neighboor is helping 
another.  The freedom shall be guaranteed to avoid oppression using computers. Typically 
the ones against which free software protects: the oppression of some programmer and or 
their boss, over users.  And you are advocating to abandon that fight, and to increase that 
oppression, in order to fight another oppression.  Naively thinking that won’t last further, 
be pushed further, or be used back against you.

> We are
> enabling this violent war criminal who wages the war on freedom with the
> threat of a nuclear missiles on the European Union member countries and
> invasion of finland and swed
> en to kill us and our neighbours and worse
> in my case my slav brothers and sisters.

I am really, really, deeply sorry, we are in the same shit rn.  I try to keep calm by thinking 
of it like an abscess we have to burn out at some point.  Putin always have been a threat 
anyway.  Some solution have to be found.

Unfortunately, nobody in this list has a solution.  Even your propositions are dummy, 
inefficient, and misdirected (you were suggesting to remove freedoms of the people 
oppressed by the same oppressor, and among the most numerous one to protest against 
him).

> Each minute that we hesitate on the subject is a minute of resources
> that we gift to russia to continue in this by maintaining their
> technological infrastructure.

you should know that most of free software is used through distributions that, even with a 
rolling release cycle, would be too slow to act before a such war end.

moreover, whatever we do, the past versions of our software are already archived on all 
the planet (because of caches, local mirrors, etc. including in all russia), so whatever we 
do, it will be as limited as the amount of progress we can do during the war… so very 
limited.

moreover, like several said: copyright is not effective against a state (and russia is known 
not to respect it already), and landwise censorship to be ineffective over the internet.

therefore, you have no proposition.  it is unfortunate, but your work and its possibilities 
have little to do or relate to this war.  if you want to change something, gather material 
help.  but i think you should first seek for emotional support among the people closest to 
you, as the most calm, the most efficient you will be.

>  > Condemning citizens of single country for what their political
> 
> leaders do is wrong.
> 
> I am not condemning, i even praised my brothers and sisters in russia
> who take a huge risks to oppose putin by staging mass protests across
> russian federation as "The Heroes of
> Russia"[https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107875192175864676] multiple times and
> i do whatever i can to support them.

no, you advocated and stated you would ban them from your software, how is that 
support?

I really wish you everything good that can happen to you, may you be strong…

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-28 16:35]:
> I don't know if the Ukrainian army is really fighting back or
> not, and the invasion sure didn't look the way we expected,
> but that doesn't make it any less an invasion.
> 
> And moreover, so what? No matter how clever a scheme this
> turns out to be it is still wrong ...
> 
> RUSSIA'S WAR IS WRONG!
> 
> PS. This sure doesn't happen every day BTW. The major FOSS
>     bodies should absolutely say something, just anything
>     really with the position they/we are opposed to it!

I totally agree that war is wrong. Any war is wrong. Humans
are degraded as when compared to animals who do not organize
to kill other group of animals without reason.

Though free software is not related to conflicts in the world.

Try with parliament representatives in Sweden first, those are
closest to you, they can do something with diplomacy.

/jl/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

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Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 14-a horo kaj 51:08 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> * Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-27 14:52]:
> > And I believe (if that can help) in the end the main and maybe
> > almost only responsible is Putin, everyone else was lied to or
> > threatened.
> 
> I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
> then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin to
> be the cause. But it is not cause.

I can imagine the sole willingful responsible is not putin, so like some high officials, 
generals, etc. must be responsible as well (on the other hand, i have the hidden hope 
many russian militaries, both low and high in hierarchy, purposedly act less competent in 
order to save lifes).  But as I cannot know who is threatened by Putin or not (he perfectly 
looks like the type), I don’t judge, and limit to «Putin and the absence of democracy».

It is always «more complicated», but it doesn’t mean the stance has to be.

> You have to review history of Ukraine and how Germany installed
> organizations back in time, history of anti-semitism in Ukraine,
> including history of Ukrainian Nazism.

I know it’s kinda worse than here, but everytime I speak to ukrainians about it, it looks like 
it isn’t.  So I guess this must be more complicated than that, up to the point it’s not that 
relevant anymore.

> I do not condone ANY war. I am against any wars.

but saying that is not sufficient when in contrast with the context you seem to

> > That’s likely right, but asking people sacrificing to people far
> > away is difficult, especially when a such war would have been
> > difficult to predict in advance, and totally ununderstandable once
> > it happened… it’s totally useless shit… Putin has just got mad.
> 
> It was maybe for you individually difficult to predict. It was planned
> and manipulated since many years by West in order to minimize power of
> East. Ukrainian Nazis have been sponsored by US congress. Why would US
> congress sponsor Ukrainian Nazis?

Because they are stupid, they also sponsored daesh to get rid of war with alqaida, alqaida, 
nazis and talibans to get rid of communists, etc. and each time it turned back against 
them.  «Why would they» is no proof, mere help to imagination of new hypothesis.  Keep in 
mind Hanlon’s razor. 



> I see and take US presidents, US congress, Western politicians and
> Putin; all together;

All together with south america, whole europe and great parts of Asia.  Not forgetting 
almost no countries support the war, they mostly stay neutral or ignore the situation, for 
the rest.

> More references for people to get better understanding of recent
> history in Ukraine:

Azov bataillion is one batailion.  It is a shame it has been officially tolerated and integrated, 
but in times of war of aggression even I wouldn’t be picky about support.  and a mere 
batailion is no excuse for attacking kyiv.  not for taking so many cities.  and certainly NOT 
for bombing.  Bombing necessarily is the risk of killing civilians (i have friends who had 
friends killed by a mere shockwave from a different building), and cannot be seen as a 
mere «attack under the bad guys», it is necessarily an indirect attack on a whole country.  
If you advocate to care for civilians, you never bomb inside cities.  If you advocate to spare 
innocent lives (for instance conscripted, internship or young soldiers) you don’t bomb 
places with any human around.

There have already been bombing and killed civilians, so you’d need a really really really 
obvious and enormous justification for that, and you have none.

> > Also I believe to suffer standing for freedom is somewhat easier
> > psychologically than sitting in despair giving up… Ukrainians are
> > showing great pride and attachment to their freedom, although in
> > front of nato lack of help it would have been more logical to
> > surrender in front of a higher power…
> 
> Majority of Ukrainians DO NOT WANT criminals such as terrorists of
> Azov Battalion operating in their country.

Before the conflict I would say «right», since the rise of far right I would say «idk», since 
beginning of war I’m pretty sure they totally don’t care.

> Thus "freedom" is related
> to peace,

Actually I disagree. Freedom, such as democracy, best operates in continuous (but 
nonviolent) conflict.

> Now Putin comes to "save people" -- what is there so much different
> than what US did in Iraq, Syria, Vietnam, and many other countries?

None, and it is not hard to find people, even in US, opposing those wars of the US.

Btw it is already a sad and hard fact more russians have now been killed than over 5 years 
in syria, this is a good metrics they were lied to, and that ukrainians are not welcoming 
them.  it’s not only azov that did that.


> > i don’t understand why nato doesn’t take the risk being bombed to
> > help ukrainians.
> 
> Russia as country does not attack Ukrainians. Definitely not. There
> are innocent victims and I do not approve of that.

that’s a normal consequence of bombing, if they didn’t want that they wouldn’t bomb

> Their families are intertwined.

that’s why it’s so hard and painful

> I never was
> thinking of Ukrainian people as being so much different from
> Russians. It is very hard for me to think that "Russia" attacks
> "Ukrainian" for reasons of being Ukrainian.

it is putin’s army who attack the ukrainians that putin told to attack, based on lies

> What I see is that Russia is concerned for crimes in Ukraine not being
> handled by Ukrainian themselves; now they have military intervention.
> 
> That Uganda has sent recently troops in Congo to fight rebels is very
> similar situation; one could simply say that Uganda occupied parts of
> Congo with purpose to exterminate rebels;

but the question is always «is congo officially fighting back against uganda?».

also no consent has ever been asked to russians for this war, and most of russians are 
against it. that’s largely sufficient alone to be against it.


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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le lundo, 28-a de februaro 2022, 14-a horo kaj 35:43 CET Emanuel Berg via 
Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor a écrit :
> Christopher Dimech wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > Dear friends, it has been agreed to stop discussing the
> > topic. We do not see how words and declarations can make
> > real difference in the matter.
> 
> They can, in the short and long run.

how? explain

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

Jean Louis wrote:

> I totally agree that war is wrong. Any war is wrong.
> Humans are degraded as when compared to animals who do not
> organize to kill other group of animals without reason.

I know! It is horrible.

> Though free software is not related to conflicts in
> the world.

The whole world is trying to isolate Russia, we should do
no less ...

> Try with parliament representatives in Sweden first, those
> are closest to you, they can do something with diplomacy.

No they are active, and I don't know if they are closer to me
than the FOSS world actually.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Alexandre Garreau wrote:

>>> Dear friends, it has been agreed to stop discussing the
>>> topic. We do not see how words and declarations can make
>>> real difference in the matter.
>>
>> They can, in the short and long run.
>
> how? explain

It works like that, ideas.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

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Le lundo, 28-a de februaro 2022, 13-a horo kaj 31:21 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> * Max Brieiev <max.brieiev@gmail.com> [2022-02-28 15:01]:
> > Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> > > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
> > > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin
> > > to
> > > be the cause. But it is not cause.
> > 
> > I am a Ukrainian, speaking Russian, living in Kyiv. What you say is a
> > complete propaganda. You know, 60% of population in Kyiv speaks
> > Russian. And yet, we hate those "leberators" that are coming into our
> > land.
> 
> That I said "I don't think so" is propaganda?

Yes.  When something is obvious, and you bring misplaced skepticism without any 
contradiction of the facts in front of you, nor sufficient justification for your position. it is.

> That "political situation is more complicated than person stated" --
> that is propaganda?

Yes.  If I come to a Shoah memorial and started saying, without any justification nor 
explanation «you know, the situation for nazis is more complicated than you stated» it will 
be just neonazi propaganda.

> That we shall accuse Putin solely for conflict -- is propaganda?

You said the opposite, that we «shall not».

> You my friend you twist words. That is my opinion, not propaganda. I
> have no resources to make any propaganda, neither I am hired by
> Ukrainian nor Russians, neither related directly or indirectly, apart
> from my grandgrandfather who was Ukrainian.

Propaganda does not have to be paid or hired.  Propaganda is from latin and initially 
refered to the popagation of christian ideas.  Then it was by the East bloc.  Neither of these 
propagandas ever were capitalist, based on money or hiring.

> And of course nobody likes war. I have used "save" or "help" under
> quotes to indicate a meaning, meaning that I am quoting it and not
> necessarily condining it. I have stated multiple times for people not
> to misunderstand me that I am against any wars.

That’s why it doesn’t mean anything to just state that.  Saying you don’t like, condone it, or 
you are against it, is of no value in front of saying otherwise than the worldwide majority 
opposing it with no proof, bringing unjustified skepticism.  You need proofs or rational 
criticism of the facts that weren’t enough to convince you to explain the suspension of your 
judgement.

> Communication is the key.
> 
> People lack communication skills and negotiation skills.
> 
> Little friendship and love can solve it all.
> 
> > It's much less complicated than you are trying to pose here. We are
> > on our land and we will defend it, we are fighting for our
> > freedom. This is as simple as that. Ukraine is as united as it had
> > never been before the war started.
> 
> Then you must be very young person.
> 
> Thinking in simplicities is what said propaganda wants you to do. Take
> young boys and die for country.
> 
> Shit.
> 
> I recommend you and your family to depart, situation will be better,
> Russia will not take Ukraine, but don't participate in bloody war for
> patriotic reasons. Defend your family by putting them in safe place.

That’s not even for patriotism alone.

> > Leave your tales about nazis to someone, who is as brainwashed as
> > you. The problem of nazis in Ukraine is no bigger than in other
> > European countries. It is heavily exaggerated by Russion
> > propaganda. There are some nazi groups, of course, but they are not
> > prominent at all.
> 
> And I am the one spreading propaganda? LOL 🤓

Even thinking it’s slightly bigger, it’s not on a different scale.  far right has progressed 
everywhere in europe including russia.  the problem is also worse in poland and russia 
than, say czechia, and yet czechs are more afraid now.

> > Just look at Sumy, Chernihiv, Kharkiv, Mariupol, Kherson. Those
> > cities are right to the Russian border, like less than 100
> > kms. Those are cities, where the majority speaks
> > Russian. Nonetheless, Russian troops have very hard times to
> > conquere *any* of those cities. They thought they would be welcomed
> > here with flowers, but instead they are welcomed with molotov
> > coctails and guerilla warfare. Nobody takes a shit of this nazi
> > bullshit.
> 
> Maybe that is the problem that nobody took shit of this nazi bullshit
> in time.

Or simply this doesn’t have anything to do with it anymore and you are stretching your 
conclusions past the point your reasons were enough to justify them respecting occam’s 
razor.

> I see my friend, you are biased.

Or the other way around.

I really wonder how is it possible that the only ever people I saw supporting russia that way 
are indians… yet india stated to be just as neutral as many other countries I’m not 
hearing… what are TV and local medias in your place saying about this? I’m curious

> Do you want to say that Amnesty International did not well research
> before they published this:
> 
> Ukraine must stop ongoing abuses and war crimes by pro-Ukrainian
> volunteer forces - Amnesty International
> https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/09/ukraine-must-stop-ongoin
> g-abuses-and-war-crimes-pro-ukrainian-volunteer-forces/

That was long ago, and ukrainian invasion is now, not eight years ago.

> Do you want to say that human rights abuses in Ukraine are none? That
> it is nothing, never happened?

There are regularely human rights abuses in france and that’d be no reason to send foreign 
armies there, as starting war usually INCREASE human right abuse.

Btw there are even more human right abuses in Russia.


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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jacob Hrbek]

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 > It can, and it would, but nobody have shown any example of this 
happening (like a specific example of a software used by putin’s army). 
-- Garreau

Putin literally has linux on his PC and russia _runs_ on linux

 > I am really, really, deeply sorry, we are in the same shit rn.  I try 
to keep calm by thinking of it like an abscess we have to burn out at 
some point.  Putin always have been a threat anyway.  Some solution have 
to be found.

 > Unfortunately, nobody in this list has a solution.  Even your 
propositions are dummy, inefficient, and misdirected (you were 
suggesting to remove freedoms of the people oppressed by the same 
oppressor, and among the most numerous one to protest against him). -- 
Garreau

I proposed asking yourself an ethical question whether releasing your 
work could be used as a major enabler in russian military, if yes then 
take appropriate steps to either de-weaponize it or impose appropriate 
restrictions to make the software not accessible to them or not as 
harmful and i proposed integrating a VPN for FSF associate members for 
FSF to moderate and move our sensitive projects on it.

Note that those are projected to be a _TEMPORARY_ measures so i would 
even go as far to implement malware that triggers when RU IP is assigned 
to the system.

On 2/28/22 14:50, Alexandre Garreau wrote:
>
> It can, and it would, but nobody have shown any example of this 
> happening (like a specific example of a software used by putin’s army).
>
-- 
Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine

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why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Alexandre Garreau]

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> And that would imply that Putin is really mad men and is now coming to
> attack Ukraine for which real reason? You tell us please.

Because russians are so tired of him and he’s getting old and afraid of loosing control, so 
he launches his last card and plays everything in.

Ukraine, along with Finland and Sweden (which he threatened too) are worrying 
counterexample of liberalism and better situation to most of russians.  And most of 
russians are aware of this.

Moreover: speaking russian in ukraine is easy, many people understand russian there (I 
keep hearing that russian propaganda stating people are being threatened for speaking 
russian there is wrong, from mostly russians leaving there; and to have mostly spoke 
russian myself in ukraine i can confirm); if a russian moves there, not only they can keep 
speaking their language, but they can most easily learn the local one as it is most similar, 
pretty easy and even somewhat more regular and rational.

So that WAS a really nice place, and the easiest one, for russians to escape.  The conflict 
since its beginning (before war) is itself is a mere excuse to avoid that to happen (as 
russian men has been forbidden to go there before).  There is to some degree hypocrit 
collaboration between russian and ukrainian elites (who btw both have stakes and 
properties and capital in each others’ country) for that sake: artificially separating as much 
as possible two countries with so friendly and similar people with each other.  There have 
been, on both side, support to the far right, neonazis, etc.  A lot more so from putin’s side: 
most of the far rights and neonazis are funded by him in Europe.  French far right is backed 
by Putin.  Hungary and Poland, worst situations in europe, are because of Putin.  Our 
increasing commitment to methane, because of our abandonment of carbonclean nuclear 
(and also the subsequent increasing reliement on coal) is also Putin’s fault.  This is not only 
threatening Russia, Ukraine, Europe, but the whole planet’s citizens.

That was okay as long as it only meant for ukraine to give up on helping and welcoming 
russians.  Now it’s not enough anymore.  The internet is making the people increasingly 
powerful and aware of whatever freedom exists elsewhere and they could get.

The same sospokenabout situation of «if we lower taxes the powerfuls are gonna escape» 
is there happening inversely: if you help the powerful, the actual people will see it and 
wanna leave.  This always have been true, it is called migration.  Migration is a threat to 
oppression, and border its solution: a threat to freedom.  Free circulation of wealth good to 
the wealthiests and their wealth, free circulation of people good to the people and their 
freedom.

Wars, soldiers, militaries, aggressions, these all reinforce borders.

What inspired me mostly: https://nitter.fdn.fr/jmkorhonen/status/1496047631969234944[1] 

Please remember we have to keep in favor of freedom, and that means against aggression, 
against censorship, surveillance, proprietary software.  If you ever feel these could locally 
or temporarily used to fight oppression, you are tricked.

--------
[1] https://nitter.fdn.fr/jmkorhonen/status/1496047631969234944

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4284 bytes --]

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Max Brieiev]

Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the
scope of other Emacs mailing lists <emacs-tangents@gnu.org> writes:

> Why don't we hear _anything_ from the Ukrainian army from day
> 1 and still nothing?

What do you mean? Locals are careful not to post positions and movement
of Ukrainian forces, in order to make it harder for Russian intellisense
to detect them. Is this what you mean by "don't hear anything"?

> Is it really fighting back and this has been
> completely hidden?

Yes, it fights back quite successfully.

> And if it is why is it so important not to show any of it?

Please check r/ukraine community in reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le lundo, 28-a de februaro 2022, 16-a horo kaj 10:57 CET Jacob Hrbek a écrit :
>  > It can, and it would, but nobody have shown any example of this 
> 
> happening (like a specific example of a software used by putin’s army).
> -- Garreau
> 
> Putin literally has linux on his PC and russia _runs_ on linux

That’s unspecific.  If it wasn’t Linux it could be kOpenBSD, kFreeBSD, kNetBSD, Mach, 
whole XNU, NT or Flushia.  It doesn’t change a shit.  And Linux is well known to most often 
be proprietary and for its developer to care little about copyleft and freedom, only about 
efficient development methods.

Now it looks like you are suggesting every software developer, says Linux’s ones, 
implement a surveillance system that asks to each user to identify themselves (for 
instance on the basis of citizenship) in order to use the software.  Some sort of DRM.  And 
you somewhat hope naively it won’t be then used back to do the same kind of oppression 
Putin is doing on Ukraine (if that surveillance system is controlled by US, it would have 
been Iraq, if China, Taiwan, if France, Niger, if Russia, Finland (hell, Linus’ originating 
country), etc. etc.).

Are you really naive enough to think any kind of oppression, control, power is incorruptible?

If it was Czechia, do you think it would be safe against putin’s army materially breakin’ in 
there, cracking it, and using it in their own favor?

Then the US would want to avoid that, and would invade Czechia (at least digitally), just as 
they recently convinced Slovakia to give up on their sovereignty in front of Russia’s threat, 
or like they have shown to illegally store nuclear weapons on antinuclear germany, hidding 
that from its citizens.

Don’t ceade to emotion and fear as you’ll end up more fragile for defending freedom(

>  > I am really, really, deeply sorry, we are in the same shit rn.  I try
>  > 
> 
> to keep calm by thinking of it like an abscess we have to burn out at 
> some point.  Putin always have been a threat anyway.  Some solution have
> 
 to be found.
> 
> 
>  > Unfortunately, nobody in this list has a solution.  Even your 
> 
> propositions are dummy, inefficient, and misdirected (you were 
> suggesting to remove freedoms of the people oppressed by the same 
> oppressor, and among the most numerous one to protest against him). -- 
> Garreau
> 
> I proposed asking yourself an ethical question whether releasing your 
> work could be used as a major enabler in russian military,

Yes it could.  And if I make food, and sell it, it could be reselled to russians.  That’s no 
reason to, say, engineer a selective bacteria that would pretendously only target russian 
DNA, put it in food, and write on it «not for russians!!!».  That would be very stupid and 
would do more harms to humans in general and russian resistance against putin that to the 
russian military (that has access to all the other food anyway).

The only narrative I can see to support that is both the one that ignores that DRM is both 
ineffective and elitistly ends up always turning back against the general public (but some 
crackers), and the narrative that if something just is needed, the whole world will gather 
together in favor of it (no, you cannot trust the whole world to act in a single direction 
coordinately, it never happens that way but in US movies).

> if yes then 
> take appropriate steps to either de-weaponize it

Do you write weapons? because your stance and speaking point really puzzles me, why 
worrying about that? what are your works that could be used against ukrainians?

Also it looks like DRM.

> or impose appropriate
> restrictions to make the software not accessible to them

You mean censorship.  Ok that’s slightly less uneffective, but still is.  Russians already are 
used to avoid their own govt’s censorship, they’d avoid most easily yours.  How would you 
do that??

> or not as
> harmful and i proposed integrating a VPN for FSF associate members for
> FSF to moderate and move our sensitive projects on it.

Why?

> Note that those are projected to be a _TEMPORARY_ measures so i would 
> even go as far to implement malware that triggers when RU IP is assigned
> to the system.

In the end you would harm more antiputin ppl than proputin one, so by defending 
oppression (in general, for the sake of liberation), and attacking freedom, you would in the 
end… defend oppression (russian’s one) and attacking freedom (including of ukrainians).

You seem to be under the effect of so strong emotion that the subliminal narrative of 
oppression grows in your mind so much that it can bypass reason and turns back against 
yourself.  Please hold a minute and reflect a bit about actual consequences.

That’s sad but sometimes we are helpless.  It happens.  Even dosomethingite and running 
in the wrong direction won’t help.

Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

I think the Ukrainian army is tied up in the East, Russia is
tied up there as well, they try to encircle the Ukrainians
from the south while pushing for Kiev for political
reasons ...

The Ukrainians have almost nothing except for their positions
in the East.

Still that doesn't explain why the Russians aren't brining in
their artillery and air force ... maybe they wait for the
encirclement to complete because at that point they expect the
enemy to capitulate?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Philip Kaludercic]

Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:

> Le lundo, 28-a de februaro 2022, 13-a horo kaj 31:21 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
>> * Max Brieiev <max.brieiev@gmail.com> [2022-02-28 15:01]:
>> > Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>> > > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
>> > > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin
>> > > to
>> > > be the cause. But it is not cause.
>> > 
>> > I am a Ukrainian, speaking Russian, living in Kyiv. What you say is a
>> > complete propaganda. You know, 60% of population in Kyiv speaks
>> > Russian. And yet, we hate those "leberators" that are coming into our
>> > land.
>> 
>> That I said "I don't think so" is propaganda?
>
> Yes.  When something is obvious, and you bring misplaced skepticism without any 
> contradiction of the facts in front of you, nor sufficient justification for your position. it is.

It seems to me that people who are not familiar with the situation and
cannot experience the events directly (because of linguistic,
geographical and technical reasons, say how media is automatically
curated on a lot of modern platforms) have a reasonable excuse to remain
sceptical by default.  I'd consider it harmful, if this were to be
conflated with bad intentions.

-- 
	Philip Kaludercic

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

OK, I think it is like this the Ukrainian army is locked and
tied-up in the East, the absence of big battles is because the
Russians aren't pushing to break thru, they are just pushing
enough to lock the Ukrainians in and keep them that way, so
they use their man advantage not by having 2 units attack 1,
but by having 1 unit lock 1, and then move the +1 unit to some
other place ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > >   * Freedom 2: The freedom to /redistribute/ and make copies _so you can
  > > help your neighbour_
  > > 
  > > How can you even argue that we are helping our neighbour here?

Many years ago I used to say "help your neighbor" in freedom 2.  But
then I realized that the freedom to share software must not be limited
to people who are your neighbors.  Our community includes lots of
people we don't know, and that don't live near us.  Freedom 2 must
include more than just our neighbors.  It must include everyone.

So I switched to saying that freedom to is to help _others_.

Is there any place on gnu.org which still says "your neighbor"?
If so, please report it to webmasters@gnu.org so it can be updated.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

The list help-gnu-emacs is meant for asking for help on GNU Emacs.
This isn't the right place to discuss other issues, even other free
software issues -- much less global political issues such as Putin's
war against Ukraine.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Jean Louis]

Big statements there, with zero references. This is not conspiracy website.


On February 28, 2022 3:22:31 PM UTC, Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> wrote:
>> And that would imply that Putin is really mad men and is now coming
>to
>> attack Ukraine for which real reason? You tell us please.
>
>Because russians are so tired of him and he’s getting old and afraid of
>loosing control, so 
>he launches his last card and plays everything in.
>
>Ukraine, along with Finland and Sweden (which he threatened too) are
>worrying 
>counterexample of liberalism and better situation to most of russians. 
>And most of 
>russians are aware of this.
>
>Moreover: speaking russian in ukraine is easy, many people understand
>russian there (I 
>keep hearing that russian propaganda stating people are being
>threatened for speaking 
>russian there is wrong, from mostly russians leaving there; and to have
>mostly spoke 
>russian myself in ukraine i can confirm); if a russian moves there, not
>only they can keep 
>speaking their language, but they can most easily learn the local one
>as it is most similar, 
>pretty easy and even somewhat more regular and rational.
>
>So that WAS a really nice place, and the easiest one, for russians to
>escape.  The conflict 
>since its beginning (before war) is itself is a mere excuse to avoid
>that to happen (as 
>russian men has been forbidden to go there before).  There is to some
>degree hypocrit 
>collaboration between russian and ukrainian elites (who btw both have
>stakes and 
>properties and capital in each others’ country) for that sake:
>artificially separating as much 
>as possible two countries with so friendly and similar people with each
>other.  There have 
>been, on both side, support to the far right, neonazis, etc.  A lot
>more so from putin’s side: 
>most of the far rights and neonazis are funded by him in Europe. 
>French far right is backed 
>by Putin.  Hungary and Poland, worst situations in europe, are because
>of Putin.  Our 
>increasing commitment to methane, because of our abandonment of
>carbonclean nuclear 
>(and also the subsequent increasing reliement on coal) is also Putin’s
>fault.  This is not only 
>threatening Russia, Ukraine, Europe, but the whole planet’s citizens.
>
>That was okay as long as it only meant for ukraine to give up on
>helping and welcoming 
>russians.  Now it’s not enough anymore.  The internet is making the
>people increasingly 
>powerful and aware of whatever freedom exists elsewhere and they could
>get.
>
>The same sospokenabout situation of «if we lower taxes the powerfuls
>are gonna escape» 
>is there happening inversely: if you help the powerful, the actual
>people will see it and 
>wanna leave.  This always have been true, it is called migration. 
>Migration is a threat to 
>oppression, and border its solution: a threat to freedom.  Free
>circulation of wealth good to 
>the wealthiests and their wealth, free circulation of people good to
>the people and their 
>freedom.
>
>Wars, soldiers, militaries, aggressions, these all reinforce borders.
>
>What inspired me mostly:
>https://nitter.fdn.fr/jmkorhonen/status/1496047631969234944[1] 
>
>Please remember we have to keep in favor of freedom, and that means
>against aggression, 
>against censorship, surveillance, proprietary software.  If you ever
>feel these could locally 
>or temporarily used to fight oppression, you are tricked.
>
>--------
>[1] https://nitter.fdn.fr/jmkorhonen/status/1496047631969234944


Jean

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-28 17:42]:
> Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 14-a horo kaj 51:08 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> > * Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-27 14:52]:
> > > And I believe (if that can help) in the end the main and maybe
> > > almost only responsible is Putin, everyone else was lied to or
> > > threatened.
> > 
> > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
> > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin to
> > be the cause. But it is not cause.
> 
> I can imagine the sole willingful responsible is not putin, so like some high officials, 
> generals, etc. must be responsible as well (on the other hand, i have the hidden hope 
> many russian militaries, both low and high in hierarchy, purposedly act less competent in 
> order to save lifes).  But as I cannot know who is threatened by Putin or not (he perfectly 
> looks like the type), I don’t judge, and limit to «Putin and the absence of democracy».

I do not know what you mean under "democracy". I do agree to
your statements. Democracy, in the meaning that people should
rule, isn't there in this world, neither was there in the
Ancient Greece (not everybody was "citizen" to vote; and women
could not vote).

The fact is that we people, have insanity in this world and
that is the cause of killing each other. Handling the subject
of insanity and its causes would solve the problems including
the war.

If we now speak in the more open minded term of "democracy",
that would include the protection of citizen by those who make
harm. The absence of democracy is thus not related only to
Russia, but it is related to Ukraine, and especially to
foreign powers which have interest to escalate the situation
and bring about the war that is taking place right now. I have
given enough hyperlink references showing that US congress was
financing the Azov Battalion, and we can see today which
countries are sending military weapons and which countries
supported the escalation from beginning.

Yes, situation is much more complex than we think. It goes
back into history, and one can see that there was always third
party that escalated conflicts in Ukraine. This war is a
consequence of manipulation and influence by third parties
into the politics of Ukraine.

Without third parties having interest in the conflict I assue
you that Ukrainian and Russians would not fight against each
other.

> I know it's worse than here, but everytime I speak to ukrainians about it, it looks like 
> it isn't.  So I guess this must be more complicated than that, up to the point it's not that 
> relevant anymore.

As every human life is relevant, so it the issue at hand
relevant. How many people died so far? I guess 20,000 of them
and more. Just look at the official information of the Donbas
war. 

If I think of "democracy" then I like thinking of law and
order. And that means respecting human rights and handling
crimes in the country. That is what Germany, Austria, Norway,
France, Spain, do in their countries. They do respect human
rights, even if there are human rights abuses, the justice
system is there that helps to stabilize it. That is why we can
see Nazis in Germany, but we also see so much of the
resistance and protection by government and by common people
who cannot be sold on those stories. 

Because government in Germany does their job pretty well, they
are handling those Nazis, so there are no mass killings.

And because Ukrainian government did not do their job well,
there are mass killings by Azov Battalion and numerous human
rights abuses.

Compare it, it is comparable. We speak of absence of
democracy. I don't know if true democracy is really there in
Germany, but Germany does handle their Nazis and does not
allow that what Ukrainian government did allow to themselves.

Logical consequence is that some party like Russia will stand
on the side of victims, so they did in past several times. 

And I am sure there were ways for Russia to stand on side of
human rights without war. There are always ways. 

The major undisputable fact is that human rights abuses went
unhandled in Ukraine, despite all kinds of warnings and
reports. It is also fact that neither US nor EU did anything
to prevent atrocities committed there against its own
citizens, all based on ethnicity.

Fact is that atrocities were not public enough. Would there be
no Wikipedia page on it, it would be very difficult to provide
references to uninformed people. 

Thus the world does not know.

Like what my Swedish friend said, war is wrong and let us now
cut off Russia. But that viewpoint is uninformed. Problem is
not just in Russian politics or in Putin. Problem is that tens
of thousands of people died because of lack of law and order
in Ukraine, and lack of democratical (modern civilized)
measures to prevent human rights abuses and killings. By
cutting off Russia, we do not help Ukrainian citizens who
suffered and continue to suffer in the country without law and
order.

And that is why the wish for independency of those 2 parts in
Ukraine.

I can understand that. You treat me bad, and I will depart
from you. It is the same feeling for individuals and for
groups.

Problem is not in Russia, problem is in all of us NOT BEING
ALERTED ENOUGH that people are killed all over the world. We
have Internet but we did not organize global emergency system
to do something when killings start.

We speak of Ukraine because it is in the news. Innocent people
are dying in Africa due to invasion and occupations all the
time, but because we are not straight informed through media,
we don't do nothing about it. There is no discussion on this
mailing list on how many innocent civilians died in Congo in
last few months. This is because West has interest in Ukraine,
they don't have interest in remote areas of the world. It is
not about humanity, it is about economical interests.

Though peacemakers can put focus on handling human rights
issues in times and be strict on that timely, as that may
prevent wars.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Max Brieiev]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> Big statements there, with zero references. This is not conspiracy website.

You made some big statements as well about justification of invasion
into Ukraine.

You accuse Ukraine of complex political situation. My friend, Ukraine is
the most democratic country of the former USSR. Not only that, Ukraine
is doing good progress in eliminating corruption, just check
Transparency International reports since 2014. The whole country is
being reformed after 2014 revolution, despite huge resources are being
drained into the conflict in the east. Zelensky was elected by 72% of
voters. What is so complex about that? He is a jew and he is native
Russian speaker. How could nazi allow that? Maybe your nazi proclaims
are just a myth?

Look at the Russian mercenaries of Wagner group, who are serving Russian
government. Just google for it and their leader Dmitry Utkin. Those are
true nazis! And they are here right now, in Ukraine, fighting Ukrainian
people. True "liberators"!

Ukraine has some disgraceful past of World War II period, related to
Polish people. That is true. This was a tragedy and I am ashamed of
it. But how can you link the events of WW2 to the current time, saying
that things are the same?  Also, this is not Poland, who is attacking
Ukraine, but Russia.

All your references are about the conflict in 2014. The war is not only
about battles. It is also the time, when marauders and criminals are
doing their nasty things. This was the time when Russia invaded Crimea
and Donbass region, just a couple days after euromaidan succeded, a
total mess, we had no government, no army, nothing!

And so I see your words as misinformation or propaganda, most Ukrainians
don't share your views. There can't be any justification for
invasion. You are blurring the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine, and
Ukrainian people are giving their lives at this very moment.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists <emacs-tangents@gnu.org> [2022-02-28 17:48]:
> > Though free software is not related to conflicts in
> > the world.
> 
> The whole world is trying to isolate Russia, we should do
> no less ...

No, we should not isolate any country. Think of people there, they are
not politicians. 

But demonstrate with your goodness how life should be. Instead of
sanctions, one should provide help. There is conflict, one shall help
parties in conflict. Not sanction any of parties.


Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Richard Stallman wrote:

> The list help-gnu-emacs is meant for asking for help on GNU
> Emacs. This isn't the right place to discuss other issues,
> even other free software issues -- much less global
> political issues such as Putin's war against Ukraine.

OK, but have the FOSS bodies been getting together offering
a joint statement perhaps or something to the extent of
speaking up against this aggression which whatever political
mumbo-jumbo one can put together will still amount to
immeasurable human suffering?

The whole world is trying to isolate Putin, so we should to.
And if one can't do that in a clever way that actually gets to
the regime, which admittedly is very difficult to do, then
just say it is wrong. That is not meaningless, it is part of
the power of ideas.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Jean Louis]

Dear Alexandre,

The manner how people talked on that attached video explains that
those people are very similar to each other by their culture,
tradition, language, history.

* Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-03-01 10:13]:
> Le mardo, 1-a de marto 2022, 7-a horo kaj 1:01 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> > Big statements there, with zero references. This is not conspiracy
> > website.
> 
> Mine would be a conspiracy constituted of just Putin, hardly a
> conspiracy.  Heads of state have gone mad before.  Hitler first.
> You didn’t give any reference related to the general point (i’d say
> «either» if i didn’t myself, but I did, and you ignored it).  I even
> have videos showing killed civilians or totally clueless russian
> soldiers, dunno who you have materially.

You mentioned many things, how Putin finances this and that. Come on.

Is it related to Emacs any more, I don't know. 

Here is reference related to world scenarios and how such scenarios
strengthen economy for their benefits:
https://rcdrun.com/files/world/2020/04/rockefeller-foundation.pdf

Though there are old scenarios such as wars. Research.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

Russia have now started to use artillery which was one mystery
why they didn't, another was the absence of Russian fighter
jets and attack planes which perhaps are still to come ...

The Ukrainian army has probably been tied up in the East since
the beginning of the war and can now be hit with artillery.

So now there is no telling how big a tragedy this will turn
out to be ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Uwe Brauer]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1047 bytes --]

>>> "EBvUlftGEte" == Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> Jacob Hrbek wrote:
>>> FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
>> 
>> I do and I've made a statement on that in
>> https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
>> reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
>> to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
>> verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
>> aircraft that could be used as a drone.

> Hm ...

> I say just war is wrong.

There is a difference between a war of aggression as it has been clearly the case here and other forms of war. 

So a general statement against war obscure this fact!!!1



I strongly condem Putin's war of agression against the Ukraine.
I support to deliver weapons to Ukraine’s military. 
I support the ban of Russia from SWIFT.
I support the EU membership of the Ukraine.
https://how-to-help-ukraine-now.super.site/

[-- Attachment #2: smime.p7s --]
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Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Jean Louis]

* Max Brieiev <max.brieiev@gmail.com> [2022-03-01 11:43]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > Big statements there, with zero references. This is not conspiracy website.
> 
> You made some big statements as well about justification of invasion
> into Ukraine.

No, I have not given ANY justifications to invasion of Ukraine. For
that reason I have constantly repeated that I am against the war. I am
for transparency of information, and not biased blaming.

The reason why I participate in that political discussion is only to
point out to biased blaming on Russia. 

> You accuse Ukraine of complex political situation.

No, that is not what I ever said. I said that overall it is complex,
not related specifically to Ukraine.

I have not accused Ukraine, I am accusing specific politicians in
Ukraine who did nothing to stop human rights abuses in your
country. And I accuse EU and NATO who did nothing to stop human rights
abuses and killing at the time they knew it was happening.

> My friend, Ukraine is the most democratic country of the former
> USSR.

I do not say that "democratic" is something most valuable, highest
ideal; and the true word is twisted so much and abused and misused, so
I would not be able to tell who is democratic and who is not.

Though I like peace. So if Ukraine is democratic and advance country,
make some choices in your country and stop human rights abused. That
should be right, isn't it? Same should be said for Russians, they
shall stop human rights abuses and protest against war.

Here I am in under developed country, with my European values, and
here I find human rights abuse that teachers are constantly beating
and torturing children. I can do something about it, and go to
teachers and personally speak to them, I also give them warnings and I
report to relevant Ministry. I cannot do much, I have visited 3
schools so far, and will keep visiting other 50 or 100 schools. But my
work is not much comparatively.

In similar fashion, you may talk to people in your country to equally
treat all citizens and support human rights, and bring to justice
those who abused human rights.

So do something.

> Not only that, Ukraine is doing good progress in eliminating
> corruption, just check Transparency International reports since
> 2014.

Every country in the world is doing something to eliminate corruption. 

I rather support corrupted country with peace like Uganda, then one
advancing in elimination of corruption, without peace and with
internal conflicts. Ideal countries don't exist, do they? I would like
there are no countries at all and that we can leave peaceful life
without influence from others.

> The whole country is being reformed after 2014 revolution, despite
> huge resources are being drained into the conflict in the
> east. Zelensky was elected by 72% of voters. What is so complex
> about that? He is a jew and he is native Russian speaker. How could
> nazi allow that? Maybe your nazi proclaims are just a myth?

Please, my references are clear. It does not matter who was elected,
that is not relevant to the fact that Azov Battalion is involved in
human rights abuses and killings. It is later, according to online
information, included in national army of Ukraine. Criminals were
accepted in army. That happens only in corrupted countries. So there
is much more progress necessary for Ukraine to really become peaceful
country.

> Look at the Russian mercenaries of Wagner group, who are serving Russian
> government. Just google for it and their leader Dmitry Utkin. Those are
> true nazis! And they are here right now, in Ukraine, fighting Ukrainian
> people. True "liberators"!

Bad. I do not support any war, killings, that is all rough
communication with stuff like projected steel pieces, I support gentle
communication, talking with words, gentleness. Not war. Love, but not
war. 

I do not take sides. Just because you see me putting out some
references, you rush to think that I take sides. 

What I do is pointing out that information from West is biased. You
point out information from your side, so that is dialogue, and we can
understand it better. My purpose is that we don't divide each other
based on ethnicity or citizenship. I was in the war and I know
something about it. All my family members went to other countries. One
part of them came begin of 1900 from Ukraine by the way.

For any war there is no justification. War is insanity. 

We have to support each other. Not be enemies.

> Ukraine has some disgraceful past of World War II period, related to
> Polish people. That is true. This was a tragedy and I am ashamed of
> it.

You should not be. You did not do it, not in this life time. 

You are ashamed because somebody teach you about patriotism. One part
of peopel killed in Ukraine were also patriots, but they are now
dead. One day your country is for you, another day it may be against
you. You don't know that? Observe what is happening with COVID. Is it
democracy? 

OK, keep your patriotism as you wish. You have rights to it.

Me I will put any patriotism in the toilet and flus water after it.

> But how can you link the events of WW2 to the current time, saying
> that things are the same?  Also, this is not Poland, who is
> attacking Ukraine, but Russia.

You asked. So I can see the link. It is the same link as during the
time of Tsar, when Germany used Ukraine for conflict and
destabilization of Russia. That same game is now going on with US and
NATO to destabilize Ukraine.

> All your references are about the conflict in 2014. The war is not only
> about battles. It is also the time, when marauders and criminals are
> doing their nasty things. This was the time when Russia invaded Crimea
> and Donbass region, just a couple days after euromaidan succeded, a
> total mess, we had no government, no army, nothing!

I understand. But why don't you also mention events that preceded it?

I am against war. I am for peace. And I am against biased
dissemination of information.

> And so I see your words as misinformation or propaganda, most
> Ukrainians don't share your views.

Now you are the one representing them. You know them all? Did you ask
them what they think about "my view"? And then I am talking
propaganda. Be factual.

> There can't be any justification for invasion.

There is no true justification for any killing, invasion, war, etc.

There are only apparent justifications for wrongdoing. That is what
Putin does. 

> You are blurring the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine, and Ukrainian
> people are giving their lives at this very moment.

I am not blurring. My intention is opposite, for information to be
known, not to be hidden.

Here is the example of what we have in this discussion:

Imagine there is observer C, and there are parties in conflict A and
B.

1) Party A does wrong to party B.

2) Party B does wrong to party A.

3) Observer C sees that party B did something wrong to party A, and
   attacks party B. Observer did not see the act under (1).

Thus I am proposing to look into information. You are in Ukraine, but
you did not yourself research what Germany did with Ukrainians and how
they used them during Tsar. And that is same what US did to you. Now
you have got war with the nation which share language and culture with
you.

I am saying, there is third party in the conflict, and that third
party has interest in that conflict!

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Po Lu]

Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
<help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> OK, but have the FOSS bodies been getting together offering
> a joint statement perhaps or something to the extent of
> speaking up against this aggression which whatever political
> mumbo-jumbo one can put together will still amount to
> immeasurable human suffering?

The GNU project does not espouse political opinions unrelated to free
software.  That includes opinions about wars.  See
www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/Other-Politics.html.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[goncholden]

> I strongly condemn Putin's war of agression against the Ukraine.
> I support to deliver weapons to Ukraine’s military.
> I support the ban of Russia from SWIFT.
> I support the EU membership of the Ukraine.

All this talk is simply pompous absurdity that is hardly noticed. As Reagan tagged the Soviets the "Evil Empire."  Westerners are almost surely to form part of the escaping cohort at any sign of trouble if they were there.  It is only ukranian men that should get the honour of endless toasts.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Uwe Brauer wrote:

> There is a difference between a war of aggression as it has
> been clearly the case here and other forms of war.
>
> So a general statement against war obscure this fact

Of course, the statement should reflect what is happening
and be tailored to that. One would be careful about every
word. But it is still pretty easy to do, two or three
paragraphs would be enough, I think. It is not a PhD thesis
analyzing the war or anything like that.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

goncholden wrote:

> All this talk is simply pompous absurdity that is hardly
> noticed. As Reagan tagged the Soviets the "Evil Empire."
> Westerners are almost surely to form part of the escaping
> cohort at any sign of trouble if they were there. It is only
> ukranian men that should get the honour of endless toasts.

The FOSS bodies should say Russia's war is wrong.

The whole world tries to isolate Russia and raise awareness
any way and everywhere they can.

If we're not it's a shame.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------

On Tuesday, March 1st, 2022 at 10:45 PM, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> wrote:

> goncholden wrote:
>
> > All this talk is simply pompous absurdity that is hardly
> > noticed. As Reagan tagged the Soviets the "Evil Empire."
> > Westerners are almost surely to form part of the escaping
> > cohort at any sign of trouble if they were there. It is only
> > ukranian men that should get the honour of endless toasts.

> The FOSS bodies should say Russia's war is wrong.
> The whole world tries to isolate Russia and raise awareness
> any way and everywhere they can.

> If we're not it's a shame.

The awareness is there, but we are mostly impotent.  All this is about people wanting to feel good about themselves, rather than anything else.  If you were there right now preaching your thought, you would be shot in the brain immediately.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Uwe Brauer]

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>>> "g" == goncholden  <goncholden@protonmail.com> writes:

> ------- Original Message -------

> On Tuesday, March 1st, 2022 at 10:45 PM, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> wrote:

>> goncholden wrote:
>> 
>> > All this talk is simply pompous absurdity that is hardly
>> > noticed. As Reagan tagged the Soviets the "Evil Empire."
>> > Westerners are almost surely to form part of the escaping
>> > cohort at any sign of trouble if they were there. It is only
>> > ukranian men that should get the honour of endless toasts.

>> The FOSS bodies should say Russia's war is wrong.
>> The whole world tries to isolate Russia and raise awareness
>> any way and everywhere they can.

>> If we're not it's a shame.

> The awareness is there, but we are mostly impotent. All this is about
> people wanting to feel good about themselves, rather than anything
> else. If you were there right now preaching your thought, you would be
> shot in the brain immediately.

There is this link if you want to do something about it.

https://how-to-help-ukraine-now.super.site/

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> [2022-03-01 13:24]:
> I strongly condem Putin's war of agression against the Ukraine.

Me too.

> I support to deliver weapons to Ukraine’s military.

That is insanity. To stop the war one has to do it peacefully. Not by
escalation. This war is in the interest of third parties such as US,
NATO as to minimize powers of Russia. They don't care about
victims. And victims are already many many due to their support like
you said "delivering weapons to Ukraine's military" though in the
first case it wasn't military but para-military Azov Battalion:

Azov Battalion - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Examining the Threat of the Azov Movement in Ukraine - GeoHistory
https://geohistory.today/azov-movement-ukraine/

US Congress stops funding for Ukraine's war-criminal, neo-Nazi Azov Battalion -- Puppet Masters -- Sott.net
https://www.sott.net/article/350064-US-Congress-stops-funding-for-Ukraines-war-criminal-neo-Nazi-Azov-Battalion

Because of those deliveries, because of Western support, we can see
conflict in Ukraine. I am sorry for people, victims, those who died
and their families and relatives. 

I would like you say "Make love, not war" and then jointly bring EU,
Ukrainian and Russian girls with us, Emacs users -- that would be
positive way of making diplomatic relationships. 

And now we have calls for more war on the Emacs List. 

Can you just stop and propose peaceful solutions?

Is "weapon" the only mean of communication that you can propose?

Why did not you propose some diplomatic way?

How do you see your position so much more different than the one of
Putin? You support war, Putin support war. That is war. Would you be
Putin, my God, catastrophe.

> I support the ban of Russia from SWIFT.

Do you also consider that such sanctions are human crime on everybody
involved in Russian system? 

Why do you support punishment of the whole population for the actions
and decisions of their politicians?

Do you understand that many people depend on banking system. 99.9999%
of those people are not related to any war. They are people living
their life. Children cannot get money from their Russian fathers.

Why do you propose escalations and use for that escalations these
mailing lists?

> I support the EU membership of the Ukraine.

For reasons of improving human rights in Ukraine, I would say yes.  EU
constitution has brought good improvements in those countries where
there was abuse of human rights. 

Though for overall reasons of globalization, I would not know. I
prefer countries like Norway, Iceland, UK, who are outside of the EU.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-03-01 13:51]:
> goncholden wrote:
> 
> > All this talk is simply pompous absurdity that is hardly
> > noticed. As Reagan tagged the Soviets the "Evil Empire."
> > Westerners are almost surely to form part of the escaping
> > cohort at any sign of trouble if they were there. It is only
> > ukranian men that should get the honour of endless toasts.
> 
> The FOSS bodies should say Russia's war is wrong.

That is none of their business. In general, leaders of FOSS
organizations are more aware and conscious of human rights. So they
are already saying it, but not in front or in the name of their
organizations. This has been already said many times.

Organizations also consists of Russians, people have divided
opinions. 

You don't want to destroy organization for reasons of private
individual opinions being misunderstood as statement of the
organization.

> The whole world tries to isolate Russia and raise awareness any way
> and everywhere they can.

It is little late, but never late, though the whole world had to raise
awareness of what was going on inside of Ukraine, and about the actual
conflict, and to help in time; we did not help in time.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-03-01 13:44]:
> Uwe Brauer wrote:
> 
> > There is a difference between a war of aggression as it has
> > been clearly the case here and other forms of war.
> >
> > So a general statement against war obscure this fact
> 
> Of course, the statement should reflect what is happening
> and be tailored to that. One would be careful about every
> word. But it is still pretty easy to do, two or three
> paragraphs would be enough, I think. It is not a PhD thesis
> analyzing the war or anything like that.

That would divide people and members of community. 

Milkman delivers milk to everybody regardless of their political
opinion. His business is about milk.

Free software organization deliver software to everybody, their
business is software. Not Putin, not Russia.

Amnesty International has purpose to protect human rights, they are
supposed to talk about it. United Nations, world government leaders,
and so on; including people and political organizations.

But don't push milkman in the war.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[goncholden]

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

------- Original Message -------

On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 12:37 AM, Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> wrote:

> > > > "g" == goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com writes:
>
> > ------- Original Message -------
>
> > On Tuesday, March 1st, 2022 at 10:45 PM, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org wrote:
>
> > > goncholden wrote:
> > >
> > > > All this talk is simply pompous absurdity that is hardly
> > > >
> > > > noticed. As Reagan tagged the Soviets the "Evil Empire."
> > > >
> > > > Westerners are almost surely to form part of the escaping
> > > >
> > > > cohort at any sign of trouble if they were there. It is only
> > > >
> > > > ukranian men that should get the honour of endless toasts.
>
> > > The FOSS bodies should say Russia's war is wrong.
> > >
> > > The whole world tries to isolate Russia and raise awareness
> > >
> > > any way and everywhere they can.
>
> > > If we're not it's a shame.
>
> > The awareness is there, but we are mostly impotent. All this is about
> >
> > people wanting to feel good about themselves, rather than anything
> >
> > else. If you were there right now preaching your thought, you would be
> >
> > shot in the brain immediately.
>
> There is this link if you want to do something about it.

Many russians I know simply go on with their business without angering the state.  Like many of us here not wanting to anger our employers.  Putin just organised it to a disastrous result.

> https://how-to-help-ukraine-now.super.site/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Uwe Brauer]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 478 bytes --]


> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

> ------- Original Message -------

> On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 12:37 AM, Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> wrote:


> Many russians I know simply go on with their business without angering
> the state. Like many of us here not wanting to anger our employers.
> Putin just organised it to a disastrous result.

Yes, I can only imagine and I also know that for me it is very easy
sitting 4000 km away from the problem and making comments.

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[goncholden]

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

------- Original Message -------

On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 1:12 AM, Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> wrote:

> > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>
> > ------- Original Message -------
>
> > On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 12:37 AM, Uwe Brauer oub@mat.ucm.es wrote:
>
> > Many russians I know simply go on with their business without angering
> >
> > the state. Like many of us here not wanting to anger our employers.
> >
> > Putin just organised it to a disastrous result.
>
> Yes, I can only imagine and I also know that for me it is very easy
>
> sitting 4000 km away from the problem and making comments.

It is only the russians that can solve this, as the Czechs and Slovaks did back in 1989.  Just took ten days for the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia to disappear.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

goncholden wrote:

> The awareness is there, but we are mostly impotent. All this
> is about people wanting to feel good about themselves,
> rather than anything else.

That's not the position taken by FIFA, F1, World Taekwondo [1]
and many, many other bodies and organizations and associations
that also are not political but still joining in on the
strategy to make Russia feel its isolation everywhere and to
reach out and raise awareness among people - maybe in
particular among Russian people who are either still under the
spell of the propaganda, or pretends to be ...

Man, I'm not gonna explain this if you don't understand it.
It's the world strategy anyway.

Don't treat this as the election of the local mayor. It's an
all-out war of aggression. How it has "always been"
doesn't apply. Think!

> If you were there right now preaching your thought, you
> would be shot in the brain immediately.

This is 2003 all over, if you still don't understand it do
yourself a favor and don't speak out against it.

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/russia-ukraine-war-live-updates-n1290293/ncrd1290323

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 1:12 AM, Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> wrote:
> > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
> > ------- Original Message -------
> > On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 12:37 AM, Uwe Brauer oub@mat.ucm.es wrote:

> > Many russians I know simply go on with their business without angering
> > the state. Like many of us here not wanting to anger our employers.
> > Putin just organised it to a disastrous result.

> Yes, I can only imagine and I also know that for me it is very easy
> sitting 4000 km away from the problem and making comments.

Am not criticising you.  Just stating how things are.  One can make comments
and have all the good intentions in the world.  I just find westerners naive.
As is saying that peace will be established in exchange for conceding some
territories - also naive.  Ukraine held a third of nuclear weapons and many
bombers - and gave them all up thinking that such actions would ensure its
future security.

Nations that sacrifice their nuclear deterrents in exchange for promises of
international goodwill are often signing their own death warrants. In a world
bristling with weapons with the potential to end human civilization, nonproliferation
itself is a morally worthwhile and even necessary goal. But the experience of
countries that actually have disarmed is likely to lead more of them to conclude
otherwise in future.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Uwe Brauer wrote:

>> Many russians I know simply go on with their business
>> without angering the state. Like many of us here not
>> wanting to anger our employers. Putin just organised it to
>> a disastrous result.
>
> Yes, I can only imagine and I also know that for me it is
> very easy sitting 4000 km away from the problem and
> making comments.

Not easy enough, I have not seen the FOSS world issue or
publish any statement anywhere?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

Po Lu wrote:

>> OK, but have the FOSS bodies been getting together offering
>> a joint statement perhaps or something to the extent of
>> speaking up against this aggression which whatever
>> political mumbo-jumbo one can put together will still
>> amount to immeasurable human suffering?
>
> The GNU project does not espouse political opinions
> unrelated to free software. That includes opinions about
> wars.
> See www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/Other-Politics.html.

It's a shame, pathetic.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

Jean Louis wrote:

>> The FOSS bodies should say Russia's war is wrong.
>
> That is none of their business. In general, leaders of FOSS
> organizations are more aware and conscious of human rights.
> So they are already saying it, but not in front or in the
> name of their organizations. This has been already said
> many times.

Disagreed, they should say so explicitly and join the rest of
the world in its strategy to isolate Russia any way we can as
a response to this and make it clear the world-view presented
by their officials and Putin is not shared or
accepted anywhere else.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

Jean Louis wrote:

>> Of course, the statement should reflect what is happening
>> and be tailored to that. One would be careful about every
>> word. But it is still pretty easy to do, two or three
>> paragraphs would be enough, I think. It is not a PhD thesis
>> analyzing the war or anything like that.
>
> That would divide people and members of community.

No, it wouldn't - no one is in favor of this, and certainly
not Russian programmers and FOSS people if that's what
you thought?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

So the next step is to complete the encirclement of the
locked-in armies of the East, while hitting Kiev hard with
artillery from the convoy to make then surrender.

A very clever strategy ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5857 bytes --]

Le mardo, 1-a de marto 2022, 8-a horo kaj 27:39 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> * Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-28 17:42]:
> > Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 14-a horo kaj 51:08 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> > > * Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-27 14:52]:
> > > > And I believe (if that can help) in the end the main and maybe
> > > > almost only responsible is Putin, everyone else was lied to or
> > > > threatened.
> > > 
> > > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
> > > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin
> > > to
> > > be the cause. But it is not cause.
> > 
> > I can imagine the sole willingful responsible is not putin, so like
> > some high officials, generals, etc. must be responsible as well (on
> > the other hand, i have the hidden hope many russian militaries, both
> > low and high in hierarchy, purposedly act less competent in order to
> > save lifes).  But as I cannot know who is threatened by Putin or not
> > (he perfectly looks like the type), I don’t judge, and limit to
> > «Putin and the absence of democracy».
> I do not know what you mean under "democracy". I do agree to
> your statements. Democracy, in the meaning that people should
> rule, isn't there in this world, neither was there in the
> Ancient Greece (not everybody was "citizen" to vote; and women
> could not vote).
> 
> The fact is that we people, have insanity in this world and
> that is the cause of killing each other. Handling the subject
> of insanity and its causes would solve the problems including
> the war.

Until there, ofc we agree.

> If we now speak in the more open minded term of "democracy",
> that would include the protection of citizen by those who make
> harm.

I don’t see how or on what ground that would.

> The absence of democracy is thus not related only to
> Russia, but it is related to Ukraine,

Ukraine is not less democratic than Russia.  It kinda is more because it is more liberal and 
it is more permitted and common to criticize leaders and do shit there.  Contrarily to russia 
where criticizing putin is harshely punished. And this is confirmed by all ppl i know in both 
russia and ukraine. 

> and especially to
> foreign powers which have interest to escalate the situation

nobody has such interest, not even russia. putin just got mad.

> I have
> given enough hyperlink references showing that US congress was
> financing the Azov Battalion,

so what? i have already told you that is not sufficient reason.

> and we can see today which
> countries are sending military weapons and which countries
> supported the escalation from beginning.

but putin started to attack, so it did escalate more visibly than any other.  if it was because 
of others, it would have been in their public interest to wait for the other to escalate more 
visibly and to do something visibly, obviously and publicly wrong befor eto react.

> Yes, situation is much more complex than we think.

Don’t say «yes» when you are the only one thinking like you do, it’s only contempting.

> Without third parties having interest in the conflict I assue
> you that Ukrainian and Russians would not fight against each
> other.

and I think they would, because putin is just mad at the fact he’s gonna die powerless and 
right under his nose there is a land full of people even selling toilet paper with his face on it 
(and you know what? many russians would even pay more to be allowed to get that xD)

> As every human life is relevant, so it the issue at hand
> relevant. How many people died so far? I guess 20,000 of them
> and more. Just look at the official information of the Donbas
> war.

and yet putin started it

> If I think of "democracy" then I like thinking of law and
> order.

You’re wrong.  You should first think about freedom, diversity, and conflict.

> And that means respecting human rights and handling
> crimes in the country.

the opposite of what putin ever did.

> That is what Germany, Austria, Norway,
> France, Spain, do in their countries.

no they don’t.  all too often they’re happy of human right abuses by the far right, that has 
now reached the entire political spectrum that’s represented in executive power.

not even talking of official, europeanfunded human right abuses, such as frontex, and the 
mediterannean genocide taking place right now

> They do respect human
> rights, even if there are human rights abuses, the justice
> system is there that helps to stabilize it.

executive system here doesn’t care about justice system anymore, and lawyers are mad at 
it but are helpless

> That is why we can
> see Nazis in Germany, but we also see so much of the
> resistance and protection by government and by common people
> who cannot be sold on those stories.

not sufficient

> Because government in Germany does their job pretty well, they
> are handling those Nazis, so there are no mass killings.

they don’t, and other germanic countries had mass killing.  currently we get regularely 
threatening of mass killing from our own neonazis and regularely learn that massive stocks 
of weapons and munitions are seized from… a minority of them.  but most of them 
accumulating such things have no issues and keep participating in politics and fostering 
and promoting human right abuses.

> And because Ukrainian government did not do their job well,
> there are mass killings by Azov Battalion and numerous human
> rights abuses.
 
so why are all ukrainian leftists I know more afraid from putin than from their govt or azov?

i can say that putin did his job of oppression a lot better than anything azov would be even 
capable of

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

goncholden wrote:

> Am not criticising you. Just stating how things are. One can
> make comments and have all the good intentions in the world.
> I just find westerners naive.

Eh, we westerners are the only ones who have a force
comparable to Russia's ...

But no one is saying NATO or even Ukraine is perfect in
any way!

We focus on this war in particular, it's as simple as that.

> As is saying that peace will be established in exchange for
> conceding some territories - also naive.

Well, you said it so you describe yourself I take it ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jacob Hrbek]

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 > I just find westerners naive. As is saying that peace will be 
established in exchange for conceding some territories - also naive.  
Ukraine held a third of nuclear weapons and many bombers - and gave them 
all up thinking that such actions would ensure its future security.

Ukraine was mostly forced to concede it's nuclear weapons in exchange 
for it's territorial integrity and sovereignty in 1991 this deal was 
done by Leonid Kravchuk (first president of ukraine who was strongly 
pro-russian and anti-western as evident by his affiliation with Dynamo 
Group and political affiliations) with the soviet union (now russia).

Calling this "western naivity" is historically flawed.

---

Nothing is perfect thus why it's important to maintain it, improve it 
over time and enable everyone to join on the effort.

The European Union is not going to concede any territory and will defend 
every inch of it.

On 3/1/22 15:34, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text 
editor wrote:
> goncholden wrote:
>
>> Am not criticising you. Just stating how things are. One can
>> make comments and have all the good intentions in the world.
>> I just find westerners naive.
> Eh, we westerners are the only ones who have a force
> comparable to Russia's ...
>
> But no one is saying NATO or even Ukraine is perfect in
> any way!
>
> We focus on this war in particular, it's as simple as that.
>
>> As is saying that peace will be established in exchange for
>> conceding some territories - also naive.
> Well, you said it so you describe yourself I take it ...
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
>
-- 
Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine


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Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Max Brieiev]

Jean,

this will be my last message to you.

Does Ukraine have human rights problems? Yes, it does.

Is it worse than in other countries? No, it isn't.

Human right organizations have free access to anywhere in Ukraine. So
watch their activity. In fact, any non-profit organizations from EU are
given massive support from government on all levels. Literally, any EU
initiative here is welcomed with open arms.

Now tell me about human right organizations in Russia. Everyone is
labeled "foreign agent" there. How much freedom do they have there?
Nonetheless, Putin is going to "liberate" Ukraine, where the situation
is much better than in Russia.

Would you say something about Wagner group? They are fighting on the
side of so called DPR/LPR. Don't you find this ironic, that real
fascists are claiming to liberate Donbass region from imaginary nazis?
Just study about their leaders! It's on wikipedia.

We share with Russia a big part of culture and history. We don't want
this war. This war is made up exclusively by Putin for the contrived
reasons.

As you may have noticed, Russian troops are not welcomed anywhere. Not
in a single vilage, not even in the most eastern parts of
Ukraine. Nobody gives a shit here about azov batallion, which by the way
has been staying in Mariupol for many years now. How many reports do
you have about human rights violations in Mariupol?

So I will repeat, you are spreading misinformation and propaganda. You
are blaming the West, but the one, who is responsible for the whole
thing is Putin.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------

On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 2:52 AM, Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@rixotstudio.cz> wrote:

> > I just find westerners naive. As is saying that peace will be
>
> established in exchange for conceding some territories - also naive. 
>
> Ukraine held a third of nuclear weapons and many bombers - and gave them
>
> all up thinking that such actions would ensure its future security.
>
> Ukraine was mostly forced to concede it's nuclear weapons in exchange
>
> for it's territorial integrity and sovereignty in 1991 this deal was
>
> done by Leonid Kravchuk (first president of ukraine who was strongly
>
> pro-russian and anti-western as evident by his affiliation with Dynamo
>
> Group and political affiliations) with the soviet union (now russia).
>
> Calling this "western naivity" is historically flawed.
>
> ---
>
> Nothing is perfect thus why it's important to maintain it, improve it
>
> over time and enable everyone to join on the effort.
>
> The European Union is not going to concede any territory and will defend
> every inch of it.

NATO is likely not to fight Russia over Ukraine.  Yet the 30-member bloc is
unwilling to acknowledge this truth.  By western naivity, I meant the general
naivity of citizens about their governments.

> On 3/1/22 15:34, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text
>
> editor wrote:
>
> > goncholden wrote:
> >
> > > Am not criticising you. Just stating how things are. One can
> > > make comments and have all the good intentions in the world.
> > > I just find westerners naive.
> > >
> > > Eh, we westerners are the only ones who have a force
> > > comparable to Russia's ...

> > But no one is saying NATO or even Ukraine is perfect in
> > any way!

> > We focus on this war in particular, it's as simple as that.

> > > As is saying that peace will be established in exchange for
> > > conceding some territories - also naive.

> > > Well, you said it so you describe yourself I take it ...

What we are seeing are more borders these days.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

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Le mardo, 1-a de marto 2022, 16-a horo kaj 29:04 CET goncholden 
a écrit :
> NATO is likely not to fight Russia over Ukraine.  Yet the 30-
member bloc
> is unwilling to acknowledge this truth.  By western naivity, I 
meant
> the general naivity of citizens about their governments.

we are not naive on this ground, most of us (with some exceptions 
especially among US citizens and swiss) know our government are 
not really democratic and we the people have no real power.

some power sometimes on some ground with a lot of efforts, work, 
and the chance to have policies slightly more (but decreasingly) 
liberal, that’s it

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[goncholden]

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------- Original Message -------
On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 3:52 AM, Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> wrote:

> Le mardo, 1-a de marto 2022, 16-a horo kaj 29:04 CET goncholden a écrit :
>
>> NATO is likely not to fight Russia over Ukraine. Yet the 30-member bloc
>
>> is unwilling to acknowledge this truth. By western naivity, I meant
>
>> the general naivity of citizens about their governments.
>
> we are not naive on this ground, most of us (with some exceptions especially among US citizens and swiss) know our
>
> government are not really democratic and we the people have no real power.

I suppose everybody likes their current lifestyle to give it up. Free Software succeeded because people from many countries

united and made a movement out of it.

> some power sometimes on some ground with a lot of efforts, work, and the chance to have policies slightly more (but
>
> decreasingly) liberal, that’s it“

>

The EU has simply stooped oligarchs using their private jets, and disconnected them from Swift. Stopped Russian State

Representative from entering the European Parliament. And simply assisting Ukrainian Refugees is pathetic.

>

>

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War is bad [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[dick]

"I" == inasprecali@disroot.org writes:

I> You grossly misunderstand what this "war" you speak of was about all
I> along.  The goal is not merely becoming the "default configuration",
I> whatever you mean by that, the goal is ending the existence of
I> proprietary software.  There is still a long way to go.

I agree.  The first thing we ought to do is discontinue GNU Emacs
support for MacOS and Windows.  More justice, less work.  A win-win you
might say.

Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Alfred M. Szmidt]

Can people please move this discussions elsewhere? It is off-topic for
this list, it is off-topic for the GNU project.  This isn't even a
tangent, it is just not suitable here.

This has nothing to do with picking sides, the GNU project, GNU Emacs,
only concern with what they do -- thats it.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alfred M. Szmidt]

Please stop arguing about Russia, Ukraine, war, and other issues that
have absolutely nothing to do with either GNU emacs or the GNU project
on this list.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Uwe Brauer]

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>>> "JL" == Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> * Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> [2022-03-01 13:24]:
>> I strongly condem Putin's war of agression against the Ukraine.

> Me too.

>> I support to deliver weapons to Ukraine’s military.

> That is insanity. To stop the war one has to do it peacefully. 

With all due respect, given the recent events that is almost unbearable.
I am not sure whether this is some kind of irony I am unable to gasp or
you are serious about this. If it is the latter, let me ask you this:

Should have Adolf Hitler also be stopped peacefully be talking?
Should the Holocaust be stopped by talking? Really?

In general, as the late Winston Churchill said, 

«blabla is better than peng peng» but there are situation where you
can't talk, because the other side simply is not listing. 

There has been talks and talks and he attacked anyway. So sure you can
give in his demands but that is like Suicide for fear of death.



> Not by escalation. This war is in the interest of third parties such
> as US, NATO as to minimize powers of Russia.

Frankly this is not true. After the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact, a
lot of former members wanted to join the NATO (on good reasons, since
the Warsaw Pact was used, at least in three occasions to suppress an
insurrection(1953 east germany, 1956 Ungary, 1968 Czechoslovakia). 

That was finally granted and now they are in. (And I can now perfectly
understand the desire of the Ukraine to do the same).

I understand that Putin was upset about it. Well this is not a therapy
session to resolve his traumas. 


So to call this war

«This war is in the interest of third parties such as US, NATO as to
minimize powers of Russia.»

Is an insult to the people of the Ukraine. Shame on you.

Putin attacked without any provocation in a very similar manner as
Hitler in 1939 Poland.


Uwe Brauer 

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Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

> So the next step is to complete the encirclement of the
> locked-in armies of the East, while hitting Kiev hard with
> artillery from the convoy to make then surrender.
>
> A very clever strategy ...

I don't think Putin is crazy as has been suggested, I think he
is a nationalist with the idea that Ukraine is a part of
Russia, and he has been building up Russia's military strength
step by step to the point he is certain they can take it,
which also has been done step by step for many years now with
this as the climax.
            
I always thought Russia would win this and I still do, I was
in denial and thought it could happen with minimal bloodshed
in the way it happened with Crimea, now bloodshed is certainly
bloody enough but if Ukrainians get sacked in the East and
surrender, and Kiev surrenders as well maybe it won't reach
the bloodiest level still if you will - for the record I still
think it is _wrong_ 100% - just from a nationalist Russian
perspective, doesn't it all makes sense even?

They can take loosing the Baltic states, they don't really
care about Central Asia, with the exception of Gruzia perhaps
but they can take it as well, but they can NOT take loosing
Belarus and Ukraine, and that's what we are seeing now?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

> So the next step is to complete the encirclement of the
> locked-in armies of the East, while hitting Kiev hard with
> artillery from the convoy to make then surrender.
>
> A very clever strategy ...

I don't think Putin is crazy as has been suggested, I think he
is a nationalist with the idea that Ukraine is a part of
Russia, and he has been building up Russia's military strength
step by step to the point he is certain they can take it,
which also has been done step by step for many years now with
this as the climax.

I always thought Russia would win this and I still do, I was
in denial and thought it could happen with minimal bloodshed
in the way it happened with Crimea, now bloodshed is certainly
bloody enough but if Ukrainians get sacked in the East and
surrender, and Kiev surrenders as well maybe it won't reach
the bloodiest level still if you will - for the record I still
think it is _wrong_ 100% - just from a nationalist Russian
perspective, doesn't it all makes sense even?

They can take loosing the Baltic states, they don't really
care about Central Asia, with the exception of Gruzia perhaps
but they can take it as well, but they can NOT take loosing
Belarus and Ukraine, and that's what we are seeing now?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

They say all the time the invasion isn't going to plan, Russia
is surprised by the resistence etc etc, but how do they
know that?

Since the Russians piled up all those arms on the other side
of the border which now easily have been moved in to the war
scene wouldn't that indicate they expected they would come
to use?

I think they know the Ukrainians inside out and they don't do
this unless they are 98% certain to win.

I looks to me like the strategy is to tie up the regular
forces in the East where they were already half busy keeping
track of the separatists, now the Russians encircle further
from the South to cut them off completely while hitting the
big cities to force them to surrender, and the convoy for Kiev
- offering a HUGE target but there are no Ukrainian forces
there to hit it! - with artillery and tanks will finalize that
strategy with a huge siege ...

If this was the plan from day one - and that sounds reasonable
since they did have a plan, they always do - then to me it
looks like it is going very much in accordance with it!

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

Again the same stuff on Sky News [1] which I don't like:

  (1) the war isn't going Russia's way, and not going to plan
      (why not and how can they know?), and

  (2) Putin is mad - maybe so, but this in particular isn't
      madness but aggressive nationalism.
            
The Russian strategy seems to have been pretty basic all
along:

  first take out intelligence, leadership, the air force etc
  with missiles;

  then invade from the North (Belarus), the East (Donbas) and
  the South (Crimea);

  with the goal of encircling the Ukrainian forces that are
  locked-in in the East (they were already there before the
  war, fighting the separatists), the encirclement is done by
  cutting the country in half from Odessa to Kiev.

The Russian troops seem to move pretty much at will in the
countryside, then they lay siege to the cities which they
hit with all bombardment they can muster, this is the so
called "shelling" one keep hearing about (artillery
mostly), the purpose is to make people suffer more so they'll
surrender more quickly.

Because man-made obstacles have been placed on so many streets
the Russians would have to move at snail's pace if they ever
entered the cities to bring the fight there, then their
vehicles would also be easy targets to Molotov Cocktails,
maybe IEDs and even kamikaze drones ...

So instead they rely on the shelling! It is almost like
a strategy from the ancient world, very thoroughly
implemented, as cruel as efficient

[1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/conf/.zsh/news
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Auq9mYxFEE

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> [2022-03-05 15:26]:
> >>> "JL" == Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > * Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> [2022-03-01 20:40]:
> >> > That is insanity. To stop the war one has to do it peacefully. 
> >> 
> >> With all due respect, given the recent events that is almost unbearable.
> >> I am not sure whether this is some kind of irony I am unable to gasp or
> >> you are serious about this. If it is the latter, let me ask you this:
> >> 
> >> Should have Adolf Hitler also be stopped peacefully be talking?
> >> Should the Holocaust be stopped by talking? Really?
> 
> 
> > Of course.
> 
> 
> I thought that was a rhetoric question but you took it seriously. 
> So I am curious how is this supposed to have worked.

By watching human rights abuses and having mechanism to immediately
act. Would we have fundamental principles globally established then we
could all act in time.

Example is now, the West thinks Russia is wrong and now they boykot
Russian resources. I don't have problem with it. The mechanism is
good, though problem is because we did not boykot US resources when
they attacked other countries, we also did not boykot Ukrainian
resources when they attacked Ukrainians. 

Problem is that we don't have such mechanisms in the world. Did you
see OSCE reports? For 8 years it was reported that war is in Ukraine
and media did not act to inform people, so that people get
"moved". Nobody acted, but few official organizations. Now there is
apparently for us who are not informed, "invasion" or sudden
unprovoked war. Though that is factually not so. The war was provoked
for 8 years by Nazis in Ukraine.

Are these here not Nazis?
https://pleroma.gnusocial.club/notice/AH6OwkHvann2VVj9HM

> So after the Wannensee conference 20.01.1942
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference The SS on the order
> of Adolf Hitler starts to very systematically kill all Jews they can
> find.
> 
> And you would tell Hitler what? What do you offer in exchange?

Hitler was marionette. I was in Germany and assisting to supply some
pictures, documents, so to make the book about men behind Hitler, so
we have documented it nicely. Hitler is marionette for depopulation
plans.

What you speak of 1942 began so much earlier, even back in 1800 and
1700 years. This is because our planet in general is not well
organized.

Do you know Declaration of Human Rights? Almost all countries approved
it, but almost none truly adopted it.

I don't say that Declaration of Human Rights is nicely written
document. But I say that we do not have ANY fundamental document valid
globally for all of us.

What we have is self matured system of "sovereign" countries where
each country is allowed to do what they want to their people. I don't
agree to that system.

> He keeps saying «I do not care I need to kill all Jews I can find.»

It is too late. Communication had to happen so much earlier.

> So, you wouldn't say the concept is flawed in that case because the
> other side simply refuses to find a compromise?

They would not refuse.

You can see any smaller group of people that are managed by
fundamental principles and you can see that people CAN be policed, and
I don't mean by police, but by communication.

Example are groups of children in kindergardens and schools in Europe
where teachers do not apply corporal punishment. So what do they
apply? They apply communication.

War is communication. Though lowest kind of communication and it
ALWAYS takes place when higher communication apparently failed.

You are also pointing out to the problem of talking but other side not
listening. If we think of higher civilized communication being on
scale from 1 to 10, somewhere like 5, then you are pointing to
situation something like:

1) Talking on scale of 5 to party who does not apparently listen;

2) Other party starts talking on scale of 4, and you from (1) go down
   scale to 4; or maybe scale 3; that maybe something like threats;

3) Or you think party does not listen and you go to scale of 3, 2 then
   1; that is killing, war, communication by force;

I hope you got the idea.

And I say that all is wrong.

When party does not listen, one doesn't go down, and discriminate
innocent Russian in Europe because they are Russian.

What one shall do is go scale up. Not down.

You can't talk to parties in conflict if you don't address the
conflict.

We have never done that. Some media does, some politicians they do,
but it is obviously not enough.

US and Europe did not address the conflict in Ukraine.

And now all we know is Putin and invasion, we say "stop". But because
we have never addressed the true problem, we cannot solve it. Do you
see?

You can't solve any problem until you find what the problem is.

> Well in any case let us run a simple experiment. Try to convince me by
> arguments that your right in your concept and more importantly, why it
> would be rationale for the Ukraine government to agree in being
> disarmed

As you mentioned "disarmed" you obviously do not understand the
problem. I suggest you read OSCE reports.

Daily and spot reports from the Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine | OSCE
https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports/?filters=+ds_date:([2021-01-01T00:00:00Z%20TO%202022-01-01T00:00:00Z])&solrsort=ds_date%20desc&rows=10

This war is NOT about Ukraine being disarmed. That did not make any
problems to Russia until 2014 and until the illegal change of
government, as sponsored by US.

I am not on this or the other side, I am just sad that truth has not
been shown 8 years, that war was going on 8 years in Ukraine and that
West did not react.

> and trust a politician you does not keep his words (see below) and
> started a full scale war of aggression.

I see how Ukrainian politicans did not keep their promises from first
Minsk agreement. Do you see before few days they said they will make
corridor for people to pass, and they continued shelling on them.

Minsk agreement was about keeping words. This war could as well happen
before 8 years, Russia was holding despite human rights abuses in
Ukraine.

See my thread on Ukrainian Nazis here:
https://pleroma.gnusocial.club/notice/AH6OwkHvann2VVj9HM

Do you think this would EVER be allowed in Germany? I assume you are
German by the name. Germany is my country just as yours, I just don't
like to identify with any nation, I am human only. Ich spreche
Deutsch.

Why Germany did not condemn Nazis in Ukraine? That would be quite
rational if we know that laws in Germany would put those guys in
prison for showing swastika only.

> I am extremely curious how to want to do that.

Talking more, means talking in time. Germany knew it. Poland knew
it. US financed those Nazis. We did not say anything. We are less
informed.

We have to build our system on the planet so that we can be well
informed in time and that we can communicate in time to solve
problems.

Just like little children, if you have 1 child, there will be no fight
with others, but if you have 3, they will report on each other to
parents, if they report, parent can understand situation and talk to
each of them. If they don't report, children keep fighting each other
preventing them to understand each other.

> I am saying a country that has been attacked by a war of aggression
> (which by the way you have not condemn till now) have all the right
> to defense themselves and I find it morally right, if they ask for
> your help in form of weapons, to provide them.

A attacks B
B attacks A
now C Uwe comes and fights B because all what you know is "B fights A"

That is lack of informaiton.

Me, I don't agree to "countries" as I don't recognize none of them. I
am playing the game they made, but not recognize them.

I recognize people and their lives.

Now if you push how Russia attacked Ukraine, well... situation is not
that simple, there were many agreements for Ukrainian existence and
those agreements were broken. The law and order did not exist in
Ukraine, that is why 13000 people were killed by Ukrainian
Nazis. Russia came now to bring about law and order. And people find
it good. Inside of Ukraine, Ukrainians reporting in those Russian
controlled cities having peace, order, humanitarian aid is coming,
food is coming into supermarkets, people continue living.

> > You are judging by what you know from recent Western media.
> 
> I am not sure whom you mean, but I do receive my information from a
> couple of well respected independent source, who had won prices for its
> investigations (like Watergate etc). Some of which are:
> 
>     1. Germany: Spiegel + Zeit

>     2. UK: The guardian + The times+BBC
> 
>     3. US: Washington Post+ New York Times
> 
>     4. Israel: Haaretz.

I do not give my trust to single huge agency and believe all
information is true.

What you need to read are OSCE reports, that is more than independent
information:

Daily and spot reports from the Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine | OSCE
https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports/?filters=+ds_date:([2021-01-01T00:00:00Z%20TO%202022-01-01T00:00:00Z])&solrsort=ds_date%20desc&rows=10

Apropos Spiegel:

https://newcoldwar.org/der-spiegel-reports-growing-number-germans-internationals-joining-ukraines-neo-nazi-azov-battalion/

> > In regards to Putin, what you don't know is that Ukrainians have been
> > bombing Ukrainians and Russians inside of Ukraine so much long before
> > this apparently "sudden" invasion from February 2022. Please research,
> > so that we talk about same background.
> 
> I did, there was and is *NO* excuse for a full scale war of
> aggression.

I agree with above statement though what I don't agree is that you are
talking about that now, but for last 8 years you were uninformed

> The same sort of argument was used by Hitler to put pressure to
> conquer Czechoslovakia and finally after the Munich agreement to
> invade the remaining Czech republic. This sort of wars are always to
> «defend» something or prevent an attack, like Germany in 1914 or
> Hitler in 1941 with Russia. History is full of these excuses.

You are mistaken, though I agree to the above, but you are mistaken
here. This is war against Nazis in Ukraine. 

> > As if you are for justice, really for justice, then please understand
> > that people were dying in Ukraine by Ukrainian forces before Russian
> > moved any tank towards Ukrainian border. Are you aware of the actual
> > I am very very sure that you do not know what you are talking
> > about. 
> 
> A pure statement to invalidate my position without any hard facts! 

Uwe, that was not my intention. The facts are on OSCE reports. And
that I told you that you did not know about Ukrainians dying, that was
not meant to invalidate your position.

I find your position rational and logic according to information you
know.

Would you know more information, I am sure your rationality would be
different.

Did you act like this before 10 months? Before 6 months? Before 3
months? 

You did not. This is because you have not read OSCE reports and
because media in Germany did not tell you about killings in Ukraine.

> Is this the sort of brilliant arguments you want to use to convince
> me?? (remember defending your attitude talk is always better and it
> is rational for the Ukraine to trust Putin and to disarm.

I do not state that above.

But I would state, it is very rational at this moment of our planetary
development to start making agreements how to demilitarize each other. 


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 12:49:25 +0300
> From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
> Cc: emacs-tangents@gnu.org
> 
> > >> Should have Adolf Hitler also be stopped peacefully be talking?
> > >> Should the Holocaust be stopped by talking? Really?
> > 
> > 
> > > Of course.
> > 
> > 
> > I thought that was a rhetoric question but you took it seriously. 
> > So I am curious how is this supposed to have worked.
> 
> By watching human rights abuses and having mechanism to immediately
> act. Would we have fundamental principles globally established then we
> could all act in time.

Please stop these off-topic discussions here.  This has nothing to do
with Emacs whatsoever.  We've had enough of that already.  There are
other forums where you can speak about this, so please take this
there.

Thanks in advance.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> [2022-03-06 20:12]:
> 
> 
> > Please stop these off-topic discussions here.  This has nothing to do
> > with Emacs whatsoever.  We've had enough of that already.  There are
> > other forums where you can speak about this, so please take this
> > there.
> 
> *Sorry*
> 
>     1. I hit the followup instead of reply button
> 
>     2. I only realized now that he does *not* use his private address
>        but bugs@gnu.support which is wired to say the least cowardly
>        could be another word.
> 
> I will immediately stop this.

I agree to stop discussion on mailing list as it is not related to
Emacs.

My private email address is bugs@gnu.support as for reason that I use
it to report bugs for GNU project and I support GNU; and I am not
representing GNU project by any mean, I support GNU project by all
means possible.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

Jean Louis wrote:

> I agree to stop discussion on mailing list as it is not
> related to Emacs.

Wars of aggression should be explicitly inconsistent with the
ideals behind free software.

The FOSS bodies should declare they are opposed to this war.

The whole world is trying to isolate Russia and raise
awareness to prevent this kind of things both short and long
term. Why should the FOSS world do nothing? It doesn't make
sense to me.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From:  Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other
>  Emacs mailing lists <emacs-tangents@gnu.org>
> 
> Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> > I agree to stop discussion on mailing list as it is not
> > related to Emacs.
> 
> Wars of aggression should be explicitly inconsistent with the
> ideals behind free software.

Once again, please stop posting off-topic messages to this list.

RE: no to war in Ukraine

[Tom Davey]

> Once again, please stop posting off-topic messages to this list.

I completely concur with Eli. Please stop. 

--
Tom Davey
tom@tomdavey.com
New York NY USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Emacs-tangents <emacs-tangents-bounces+tom=tomdavey.com@gnu.org> On
Behalf Of Eli Zaretskii
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2022 3:11 PM
To: Emanuel Berg <moasenwood@zoho.eu>
Cc: emacs-tangents@gnu.org
Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine

> From:  Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions 
> outside the scope of other  Emacs mailing lists 
> <emacs-tangents@gnu.org>
> 
> Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> > I agree to stop discussion on mailing list as it is not related to 
> > Emacs.
> 
> Wars of aggression should be explicitly inconsistent with the ideals 
> behind free software.

Once again, please stop posting off-topic messages to this list.