From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Keybinding styles (was: [External] : Re: Gitlab Migration) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 23:29:44 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87lf4dnk0z.fsf@gmail.com> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22218"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: theophilusx@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: John Yates Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 08 05:36:32 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mNoO0-0005ZY-GR for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 05:36:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55476 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mNoNz-0002dH-JB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 23:36:31 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54272) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mNoHT-00086c-4d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 23:29:47 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:49010) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mNoHS-0007Rr-Rs; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 23:29:46 -0400 Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mNoHQ-0003RH-Sh; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 23:29:44 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from John Yates on Tue, 7 Sep 2021 08:02:03 -0400) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:274309 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I did not suggest that we do any work specifically to support > any specific alternative set of key bindings. What I attempted > to suggest is trying to understand the experience of someone > adopting Emacs from the outset with evil-mode or some other > alternative set of key bindings enabled. To what extent can > that user be made to feel other than a second class member > of our community? In principle, if we could easily do that, there would be no reason not to try. But I expect it would be far too much work, and that we should therefore reject the goal. For instance, anyone using an interface different from the one described in the Emacs Manual will justly feel it is second-class. > Can the user experience when perusing > documentation be either in terms of neutral function names > or, when key bindings must be mentioned, then in terms of > that user's elected bindings? We do that in the documentation strings in Emacs. But not in the manual, because that is written by hand. If you wanted to do a research project, you could try developing a system for writing manuals which handled variation in key bindings. You might come up with an advance in technology. If you want to work on that research, I wish you luck, but that is outside the scope of the GNU Project. > > I keep wishing someone came up with a clever way for modes to specify > > their key-bindings in such a way that Emacs can automatically derive from > > it the keys to use "normally" as well as the keys to use in Evil or the > > keys to use in god-mode, or the keys to use in this hypothetical new > > `really-cua-mode`, ... > > So as to finally address this long-term maintenance challenge. This is a different project -- it does not involve the Emacs Manual. It might be much easier than the project I discussed above. It is still research, though, and outside the scope of the GNU Project. Not so far outside, but outside nonetheless. I don't think this project should be a priority. But work on it if you like, and if you make it work, we could install it. I do not believe that this would be enough to avoid making users of nonstandard key bindings feel their key bindings are second class. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)