From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Making GNUS continue to work with Gmail Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 00:08:33 -0400 Message-ID: References: <878sf9c69y.fsf@gnus.org> <871rkw62t3.fsf@gnus.org> <87bljki71n.fsf@mat.ucm.es> <87364wxlec.fsf@gnus.org> <87imdsgmlw.fsf@mat.ucm.es> <871rkfhkhc.fsf@mat.ucm.es> <875z9p5hnc.fsf@mat.ucm.es> <87364pbkn0.fsf@gnus.org> <87lfihe0zf.fsf@mat.ucm.es> <874kp55l8t.fsf@gnus.org> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="6352"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 18 06:09:03 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1k7svm-0001XD-V3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 18 Aug 2020 06:09:02 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45278 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k7svm-0003XK-16 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 18 Aug 2020 00:09:02 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47136) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k7svK-00037k-LC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Aug 2020 00:08:34 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:44503) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k7svK-0004nH-3o; Tue, 18 Aug 2020 00:08:34 -0400 Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1k7svJ-0004x5-6k; Tue, 18 Aug 2020 00:08:33 -0400 In-Reply-To: (emacs-devel@gnu.org) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:253923 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > If so, then anyone who starts using Gmail in the future will have had to > > run that same nonfree software to start. > > > "will have to run nonfree software to start": yes. > "will have to run _that same_ nonfree software to start": no. For > solution (1), it is necessary to use https://console.developers.google.com > to "create" an app We are miscommunicaing here. I am talking about option (2), where the user only has to log in and permit access to per account via the already-existing app. (Or at least, that's what I think you said.) I'm not talking about option (1) since it is totally unacceptable. > > So I think it would be acceptable for GNUS to have an app key such that, > > IF a user does these things with Gmail, per Gmail account works with > > GNUS. > > > I fear not. Solution (2), which is used by Kmail and others, does not > seem to be compatible with the GNU ethical principles either, as it would > require someone from GNU, or on behalf of GNU, to use > https://console.developers.google.com to create AOuth credentials to > include them in the sources of GNUS. If done the usual way, this would involve someone's running that nonfree Javascript code. But we don't say "GNU developers must never run a nonfree program to do their work." Until GCC was working well enough to host itself forever, I compiled it lots of times with the nonfree BSD compiler. What we avoid on principle is the situation where use of our software depends on running nonfree software. For one person to run nonfree software once, to make it unnecessary for others to run it, is the sort of situation which we consider a legitimate exception. Also, I am not convinced it has to be done by "someone from [the GNU Project], or on behalf of [the GNU Project]". It could be anyone who wants to keep using GNUS with Gmail (and is willing to sometimes run Gmail's nonfree JS code). If someone does this and sends us some data, we can use it. If no one does this, well, not working with Gmail isn't a disaster. Meanwhile, I wonder if Chris DiBona could let us bypass that nonfree JS code. I would guess that what Google really cares about is not whether we run that JS code, but rather the substance of that request. This brings me to another issue that may be harder to work around. What conditions would someone have to agree to when requesting Google's approval for an app? There could be something morally unacceptable in that. Though it does matter who would have to agree to it. Here's an idea. Is it possible to modify Kmail so that it does the necessary low-level access, and nothing else? Delete the code for displaying an editing mail. This drastically modified version of Kmail would satisfy Kmail's license. GNUS and Rmail could use it, much as they used to use movemail. Maybe it could be upward compatible with the old movemail. -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)