From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2016 18:09:32 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87h9cdmj6t.fsf@delle7240.chemeng.ucl.ac.uk> <5775A512.4020803@gmail.com> <8337ntvm2d.fsf@gnu.org> <87h9c9lqll.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1467411046 7780 80.91.229.3 (1 Jul 2016 22:10:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 22:10:46 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eric Abrahamsen Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jul 02 00:10:37 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bJ6dx-0001qe-4z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 02 Jul 2016 00:10:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35957 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bJ6dv-0000kC-KD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2016 18:10:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38830) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bJ6d8-0000iL-03 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2016 18:09:47 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bJ6d5-0004bB-Sl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2016 18:09:44 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:37368) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bJ6cw-0004YR-Cn; Fri, 01 Jul 2016 18:09:34 -0400 Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1bJ6cu-0002I6-Nc; Fri, 01 Jul 2016 18:09:32 -0400 In-reply-to: <87h9c9lqll.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> (message from Eric Abrahamsen on Fri, 01 Jul 2016 16:17:26 +0800) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:205062 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > 1. Document structure and export. The org document structure is already > pretty darn simple, and export "just works". You need some kind of > markup and structure before you can export, and I don't see how Org > could get any simpler, or easier to use. Maybe you're right. I don't see anything bad about having such a structured editing mode. > 2. The spreadsheet. Apparently table.el was either too complicated or > too limiting to be easily used. Probably what should have happened > here is that table.el should have been improved. There's no intrinsic > reason why the spreadsheet aspect of Org needs to rely on Org's > markup, or its major mode. This could be an instance of the problem I mean. If the spreadsheet were a separate facility from Org mode, so that you could use either one without the other, that doesn't mean they could not work together well also. (Though then you start getting into > something like multiple major modes.) Indeed, people are working gradually on support for having multiple major modes in one buffer. > 3. Babel. I don't use this, but it's obviously a really, really powerful > feature that users cannot find elsewhere. In a sense it *is* multiple > major modes, done in a very regimented and bounded way. Again, no > real reason why it needs to be part of Org structure or markup. But > it would need to be part of *some* markup -- it wouldn't be possible > without structure. Right now, that structure is Org mode. What is Babel? I'm not against having various other things use the markup of Org format when they need such a format. > 4. The agenda. Similar to the spreadsheet and table.el, I think the > agenda came about because diary.el wasn't doing the trick (I don't > know the history, maybe someone else will chime in). So again, it's a > re-working of an existing functionality. The agenda itself is a > special mode, and there's no reason at all why it needs to be tied to > Org mode document structure. I've never been able to come up with a concept that includes both an agenda and the other features of Org mode. > So one observation is, Org got where it is by taking some existing Emacs > libraries, making them easier to use, and allowing them all to coexist > in a single document. But it didn't make those things easier to use. It replaced them -- but not each one by one. Rather, it replaced all of them with one complex combined thing. That's what I see as a problem. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.