From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Upcoming loss of usability of Emacs source files and Emacs. Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 13:37:17 -0400 Message-ID: References: <20150615142237.GA3517@acm.fritz.box> <87y4jkhqh5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <557F3C22.4060909@cs.ucla.edu> <5580D356.4050708@cs.ucla.edu> <87si9qonxb.fsf@gnu.org> <55826DCC.9040404@cs.ucla.edu> <55850208.3080605@cs.ucla.edu> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1434821865 30791 80.91.229.3 (20 Jun 2015 17:37:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 17:37:45 +0000 (UTC) Cc: acm@muc.de, stephen@xemacs.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, tsdh@gnu.org To: Paul Eggert Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jun 20 19:37:36 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Z6Mi0-0003ui-3s for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 19:37:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34318 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z6Mhz-0003zC-Ep for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 13:37:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37709) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z6Mhw-0003yp-NB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 13:37:33 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z6Mhv-0004wg-I8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 13:37:32 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:57320) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z6Mhi-0004lf-P8; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 13:37:18 -0400 Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1Z6Mhh-0007Ul-Qr; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 13:37:17 -0400 In-reply-to: <55850208.3080605@cs.ucla.edu> (message from Paul Eggert on Fri, 19 Jun 2015 23:02:48 -0700) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:187339 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] There are two different issues here: a UI issue and a programming issue. I'm afraid you are mixing them up. > Also, quoting with single quotes is easier for most non-experts to read. Most non-experts don't read the Emacs source code. Are you talking about reading messages and doc strings? > Emacs's traditional style of quoting with grave accent and apostrophe is > idiosyncratic and is offputting for many new users; To new users reading the Emacs source code? Or is this about what they see in messages and doc strings? > I have > some interest and experience in this, as my assistants and I introduce Emacs to > an average of about one new user per day. When you introduce Emacs to new users, do you teach them to edit Emacs Lisp code? I have nothin against it, but it seems unlikely that they all advance so far in one day. There are two different issues here: a UI issue and a programming issue. The UI issue is about what to display in messages doc strings. The programming issue is about what to write in the source code. I'm talking about the source code issue, but the reasons you give seem to apply to the UI issue. We've already settled the UI issue, with a feature that will display the quotes in whatever form the user likes, defaulting based on what the terminal can display. That should please everyone. This makes the source code issue totally independent of the UI issue. What practical benefit comes from writing curly quotes in doc strings in Lisp source code? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.