From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Upcoming loss of usability of Emacs source files and Emacs. Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 10:41:14 -0400 Message-ID: References: <20150615142237.GA3517@acm.fritz.box> <87y4jkhqh5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <557F3C22.4060909@cs.ucla.edu> <5580D356.4050708@cs.ucla.edu> <87si9qonxb.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1434552750 16070 80.91.229.3 (17 Jun 2015 14:52:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:52:30 +0000 (UTC) Cc: acm@muc.de, stephen@xemacs.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Tassilo Horn Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 17 16:52:16 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Z5EhL-0002mY-Fm for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:52:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47359 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z5EhK-0000yM-To for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Jun 2015 10:52:14 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46775) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z5Eh6-0000yF-NX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Jun 2015 10:52:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z5Eh5-0004d9-Mh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Jun 2015 10:52:00 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:43673) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z5EgR-0003xM-Qu; Wed, 17 Jun 2015 10:51:19 -0400 Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1Z5EWg-00050S-GG; Wed, 17 Jun 2015 10:41:14 -0400 In-reply-to: <87si9qonxb.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Tassilo Horn on Wed, 17 Jun 2015 08:21:20 +0200) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:187246 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > But with respect to the coding conventions Oleh cited, it is true that > the use of ‘foo-bar’ instead of `foo-bar' is at least encouraged for > lisp docstrings (and comments) although both will be displayed like the > former with describe-*, right? This change in the source format is a bad idea. It is a pain in the neck, providing no practical benefit. This is a doc string convention, like \\[...], not a user interface. It needs to be convenient, not pretty. Inserting ‘ and ’ is as very inconvenient. Hunting for how to insert them is even more so, as it is not documented. Because I have an instance of ‘ in the buffer now, I was able to use C-u C-x = on it, which told me I could insert it with C-x 8 RET 2018 RET. I will not remember that hex code. I will be able to look it up again next time -- if I have an instance in the buffer. Of course, given one the buffer, I will not use C-x 8, I will copy it with the kill ring. In other words, this character is so inconvenient to insert that I will use workarounds rather than try. In practice, to insert curly quotes, I will have to find an instance to copy. The Emacs Manual in Info provides no help on inputting them. The word "curly" does not appear in the manual, except in regard to another character. In the chapter on non-ASCII characters, the only advice it gives is the general reference to C-x 8 -- nothing about how to use C-x 8 to get curly quotes in particular. There was talk some months ago about adding C-x 8 shortcuts for curly quotes, but C-x 8 C-h does not show them. I found nothing in etc/NEWS either. I am running from source fetched on May 8. If those shortcuts are implemented, they will require 3 or 4 characters, one of them a control character. That's better than 8 characters, but still a pain. We must not make any convention involving those characters in source code. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.