From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:34:46 -0500 Message-ID: References: <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87r4za3aml.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1326011696 27012 80.91.229.12 (8 Jan 2012 08:34:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 08:34:56 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 08 09:34:53 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjoDM-0008Q2-Rb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 09:34:53 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36869 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjoDM-0002yl-C9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:34:52 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52295) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjoDI-0002yg-SN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:34:49 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjoDH-0004ep-K6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:34:48 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:53556) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjoDH-0004ek-Gn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:34:47 -0500 Original-Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjoDG-0005qX-QK; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:34:46 -0500 In-reply-to: <87r4za3aml.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (stephen@xemacs.org) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:147481 Archived-At: > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" > Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 16:40:34 +0900 > > Richard Riley writes: > > > It was quite clear in the context what was meant by "emacs component" : > > a component which contributes to a working and complete emacs > > installation. > > In context, I don't disagree with that definition. I merely deny that > GnuTLS is needed for a complete Emacs distribution in that sense from > the point of view of the GNU Emacs project. I believe that Juanma and > Eli would agree with me that those two points are the main ones, > though we respectfully disagree with each other on many other grounds. I do agree, mainly because the concept of a "working and complete emacs installation" defined above will lead us to absurdity, whereby we will need to provide many programs and packages Emacs uses in some of its features, which on Windows are not available out of the box. GnuTLS is not different from Grep or Find or Ispell/Aspell or Awk, to name just a few (and that's even before you consider the tools needed to build programs from Emacs). Building these add-ons and providing installers for them must be a job of a separate group of volunteers, not of the Emacs project. The job of the Emacs project is to provide infrastructure for integration with those add-ons, such as dynamic-library-alist populated with the names of the supported DLLs and the machinery to load the DLLs on demand. > > I dont want to bicker and be petty but felt Ted was getting a bit > > of a hard time for merely wanting to make things better for the end > > user and, more importantly, the new adopter. > > But this is not petty, it's fundamental! Proponents who argue that > distribution of GnuTLS binaries is needed for Windows users are > ignoring a very important distinction: users (new adopters) of the GNU > System (and at lower priority, free OSes in general) vs. users of > non-free OSes and OSes whose attractiveness is based on non-free > software. Supporting the former is the policy of GNU Emacs; > supporting the latter is not (though of course individual developers > are free to contribute to such support if they like). That is true, but we don't even distribute GnuTLS for GNU systems, so talking about doing that for Windows is _really_ far-fetched.