From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: bidi-display-reordering is now non-nil by default Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 08:01:26 -0400 Message-ID: References: <20110731.082721.451360942.wl@gnu.org> <20110731.085115.40009301.wl@gnu.org> <877h6yanje.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <878vre95g3.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <874o2293n8.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87wrey7n5v.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1312113698 25681 80.91.229.12 (31 Jul 2011 12:01:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 12:01:38 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: David Kastrup Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 31 14:01:34 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QnUi5-0004Xm-NY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 14:01:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36807 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QnUi4-0000Ww-TN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 08:01:32 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50315) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QnUi1-0000Wh-Ql for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 08:01:30 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QnUi0-0002P7-J7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 08:01:29 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:38223) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QnUhz-0002P0-BX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 08:01:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QnUhy-0004C4-UB; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 08:01:27 -0400 In-reply-to: <87wrey7n5v.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> (message from David Kastrup on Sun, 31 Jul 2011 12:35:40 +0200) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:142559 Archived-At: > From: David Kastrup > Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 12:35:40 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > Maybe. Bidi is a feature of display, i.e. it's impossible to > > correctly display text in some scripts without it. With today's deep > > and wide m17n, whereby file names and network addresses can use R2L > > characters, saying "my mode doesn't have bidi" is tantamount to saying > > "my mode doesn't support certain cultures". > > Emacs is a desktop environment with at best marginal > internationalization, and editing texts is only a small part of its > functionality. I think it is delusional to prescribe that all modes and > programming languages should in the name of culture-friendliness be > thought of as bidirectional by default when virtually no aspect of > Emacs' user interfaces (short of tutorials in multiple languages) > departs from English. I wasn't talking about the UI, I was talking mainly about the text we display in the window. For example, Dired mode can say "I have no bidi", but then it will display file names that use R2L characters in a way that makes them barely readable. Rmail can say "I have no bidi", but then email messages written in R2L scripts will be unreadable. Etc., etc. This happens because R2L scripts from outside Emacs seep into Emacs, whether we want that or not. Btw, some small portion of this leaks into the UI as well. For example, the name of a buffer that visits a file whose name includes R2L characters will be displayed in the mode line and in the appropriate menu items. (The former is supported by the current code base, the latter depends on the toolkit, but should generally work as well.) So, while it's true that the Emacs is only marginally internationalized, the environment in which we work every day already requires that even the UI should support bidi. Otherwise, users who _really_ need bidi will not be satisfied, and will turn to other applications for their needs. The net effect will be that the addition of bidi to Emacs will become a futile exercise.