From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: base Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 07:26:16 -0400 Message-ID: References: <20100822120642.GA1794@muc.de> <87bp8uzu9d.fsf@mithlond.arda> <871v9o7dmf.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87wrrg5rzg.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87r5ho5gyr.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87hbij6hib.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87k4nf7ezq.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <878w3v7dd2.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <83wrrfmljv.fsf@gnu.org> <87d3t75crc.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <8739u265eq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83sk22msp4.fsf@gnu.org> <87zkw94qn4.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1282821993 3507 80.91.229.12 (26 Aug 2010 11:26:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 11:26:33 +0000 (UTC) Cc: miles@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 26 13:26:30 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OoabE-0006P3-G6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 13:26:28 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54304 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OoabD-00087a-Dt for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 07:26:27 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=52343 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ooab6-000873-PC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 07:26:20 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Ooab5-00021A-LF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 07:26:20 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:59068) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Ooab5-000216-E2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 07:26:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ooab2-0005kZ-Nv; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 07:26:16 -0400 In-reply-to: <87zkw94qn4.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (stephen@xemacs.org) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:129249 Archived-At: > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, > miles@gnu.org > Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:25:35 +0900 > > *sigh* I guess I'm going to have to go into interminable detail on > this.... Thanks. However, what you wrote just shows once again that we are talking on two very different levels. Your "user" is actually a hacker who wants to know and understand a lot about low-level details of the tool's operation. My idea of a user and the level of this knowledge users need is very different. You say that it is impossible in practice to use tools without such deep knowledge. I say that it's possible and prove that by doing it, with bzr and with other tools. There are a few tools I use where my level of familiarity with the internals is like yours regarding git, but bzr is not one of them, and probably never will be. Still, I have no trouble using it quite efficiently (no thanks to bzr docs), without having a slightest idea how it represents the history DAG or what are all those files in the .bzr subdirectories of my repository. Contrary to what you say, these are, IMO, private data, not public data; for example, if bzr changes its repository format, I as a user don't care as long as there's a simple way of upgrading to the new format. The fact that this data is visible does not mean it's public in the sense that users _should_ look at them, it just means that they _can_. I don't expect you to agree, so let's leave it at that. I already wrote a lot, maybe too much, about my views on this today.