* Efforts to attract more users? @ 2010-07-08 5:31 Ken Hori 2010-07-08 7:44 ` joakim ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Ken Hori @ 2010-07-08 5:31 UTC (permalink / raw To: Emacs Dev [emacs-devel] I'm not sure if Emacs is attracting new users the way it used to be. Certainly search volume has been going downhill for more than several years (http://www.google.com/trends?q=emacs), and yet I don't hear this issue being addressed here strongly enough. I hate to ask pedestrian sort of a question like this, but are there any efforts specifically to attract more users? Thanks. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-08 5:31 Efforts to attract more users? Ken Hori @ 2010-07-08 7:44 ` joakim 2010-07-08 13:28 ` Adrian Robert ` (2 more replies) 2010-07-08 16:56 ` Drew Adams ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 3 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: joakim @ 2010-07-08 7:44 UTC (permalink / raw To: Ken Hori; +Cc: Emacs Dev [emacs-devel] Ken Hori <fplemma@gmail.com> writes: > I'm not sure if Emacs is attracting new users the way it used to be. > Certainly search volume has been going downhill for more than several years > (http://www.google.com/trends?q=emacs), and yet I don't hear this issue being > addressed here strongly enough. I hate to ask pedestrian sort of a question > like this, but are there any efforts specifically to attract more users? > > Thanks. I dont know of any organized effort. I do try to attract people to Emacs and free software myself. I mostly work with developers that use a windoze desktop, Eclipse, and some secondary simpler editor. In recent years getting people interested in Emacs has been difficult, I can only recall about one or two people I helped getting started with Emacs the last 3 years. I also try to help improve technical things developers used to an IDE find lacking in Emacs. CEDET being included in Emacs was a step in the right direction. I think Emacs has a lot of potential to attract new users, especially if we put more effort into polishing some user interface aspects. For instance I have observed the following usage pattern with developers using Eclipse: "Hmm, I want to diff a file in my project. I don't want to read a boring manual. Lets fiddle around in the menus until I find a suitable Wizard that does it for me" Emacs could quite possibly do the same thing better than Eclipse, but the same developer trying the same approach in Emacs would probably get stumped. I would like to emphasize that I don't think Emacs should do things the same way Eclipse does them, we need to find Emacsy ways. Perhaps by improving the Emacs documentation so it is a more obvious entry point rather than clicking about in menus. Perhaps the info documentation could be enhanced so it works more like the web, with improved search facilities, support for Wizards in the info documentation, etc. -- Joakim Verona ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-08 7:44 ` joakim @ 2010-07-08 13:28 ` Adrian Robert 2010-07-08 14:26 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2010-07-08 13:54 ` Stuart Hacking 2010-07-09 3:05 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Adrian Robert @ 2010-07-08 13:28 UTC (permalink / raw To: emacs-devel <joakim <at> verona.se> writes: > I would like to emphasize that I don't think Emacs should do things the > same way Eclipse does them, we need to find Emacsy ways. Perhaps by > improving the Emacs documentation so it is a more obvious entry point > rather than clicking about in menus. Perhaps the info documentation > could be enhanced so it works more like the web, with improved search > facilities, support for Wizards in the info documentation, etc. It's hard to say. I see lots of developers even using Eclipse in completely non-optimal ways, because there seems to be some kind of bias towards using mouse and on-the-screen display elements for tasks. For example, laboriously navigating a large class hierarchy using the tree display on the left to find a class they know they name of, rather than just invoking "Find Resource" whether by keystroke or menu. Even developers that know about the command still persist in this. What is it? Habit, bias away from the keyboard? Whatever it is, just adding eye candy or wizards to emacs won't change its nature as a keyboard-oriented editing system, and add-ons like JDEE and ECB, great as they are, are never going to match what a widget-oriented system like Eclipse provides. For that matter, why is VIM popular? I've never seen how the weird, line-oriented, moded editing style has anything to compare in ease of use or simplicitly to learn with emacs, yet developer after developer uses it as their "second choice or remote" editor -- while considering emacs "too hard" or "too complicated". (?) I do think the basic mouse and selection interaction there is in emacs needs to continue to be brought more in line with other other apps. The little things, getting default line and word-wrapping modes right, enabling forward delete by default for delete key, etc.. Maybe some kind of reasonable default right-click menus (based on mode of course). -Adrian ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-08 13:28 ` Adrian Robert @ 2010-07-08 14:26 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2010-07-08 14:53 ` Stuart Hacking 2010-07-08 15:09 ` Teemu Likonen 0 siblings, 2 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2010-07-08 14:26 UTC (permalink / raw To: Adrian Robert; +Cc: emacs-devel Adrian Robert writes: > For that matter, why is VIM popular? I've never seen how the > weird, line-oriented, moded editing style has anything to compare > in ease of use or simplicitly to learn with emacs, yet developer > after developer uses it as their "second choice or remote" editor > -- while considering emacs "too hard" or "too complicated". (?) I've never heard "too hard" or "too complicated". What I hear a lot is that Emacsen take too long to start, or at least they did when those guys started using vi(m). OTOH, most of the folks I know who use vi don't use vim, they use nvi or elvis or something like that. The other thing a lot of people complain about is Emacs regexps (why, I'm not sure, they're mostly the same as vim's!), and the fact that there's no regexp search on a short key sequence. Yes, I know about C-u C-s; the point is that they don't find out until well after they've chosen a different editor. I think an incremental re-search with pcre would be a killer feature for newbies, but what do I know? ;-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-08 14:26 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2010-07-08 14:53 ` Stuart Hacking 2010-07-09 21:46 ` Richard Stallman 2010-07-08 15:09 ` Teemu Likonen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Stuart Hacking @ 2010-07-08 14:53 UTC (permalink / raw To: Stephen J. Turnbull; +Cc: Adrian Robert, emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 751 bytes --] On 8 July 2010 15:26, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote: > > ,,,and the fact that there's no regexp search on a short key sequence. > Yes, I know about > C-u C-s; the point is that they don't find out until well after > they've chosen a different editor. > Is there any reason why we can't make C-s and C-r use the regexp equivalents? I've been doing this for some time. Performance is fine and for most strings behaviour is the same as string search. (unless you frequently search for periods or pluses I guess.) When I first tried the incremental regexp search, I thought it was pretty neat that emacs highlighted the subsequent matches in addition to the current. I'm not sure I could name another editor that does that. -- Stuart [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1098 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-08 14:53 ` Stuart Hacking @ 2010-07-09 21:46 ` Richard Stallman 2010-07-09 22:52 ` Christoph 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2010-07-09 21:46 UTC (permalink / raw To: Stuart Hacking; +Cc: stephen, Adrian.B.Robert, emacs-devel Is there any reason why we can't make C-s and C-r use the regexp equivalents? I would not like having to use regexp search by default. I'd rather leave that on C-M-s. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 21:46 ` Richard Stallman @ 2010-07-09 22:52 ` Christoph 2010-07-09 23:53 ` Chong Yidong 2010-07-10 14:51 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 2 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Christoph @ 2010-07-09 22:52 UTC (permalink / raw To: rms, stuhacking, stephen, Adrian.B.Robert, emacs-devel On 7/9/2010 3:46 PM, Richard Stallman wrote: > Is there any reason why we can't make C-s and C-r use the regexp > equivalents? > > I would not like having to use regexp search by default. > I'd rather leave that on C-M-s. > Is there anything that search can do that regular expression search can't? Would anyone who is not familiar with regexp search even notice a difference? Christoph ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 22:52 ` Christoph @ 2010-07-09 23:53 ` Chong Yidong 2010-07-10 14:51 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Chong Yidong @ 2010-07-09 23:53 UTC (permalink / raw To: Christoph; +Cc: stuhacking, stephen, Adrian.B.Robert, rms, emacs-devel Christoph <cschol2112@googlemail.com> writes: > Is there anything that search can do that regular expression search > can't? Search for punctuation without quoting. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 22:52 ` Christoph 2010-07-09 23:53 ` Chong Yidong @ 2010-07-10 14:51 ` Richard Stallman 2010-07-10 14:55 ` Christoph 1 sibling, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2010-07-10 14:51 UTC (permalink / raw To: Christoph; +Cc: stuhacking, stephen, Adrian.B.Robert, emacs-devel Many characters are special in regexps. I want no difficulties when I search for characters such as [ or *. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-10 14:51 ` Richard Stallman @ 2010-07-10 14:55 ` Christoph 0 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Christoph @ 2010-07-10 14:55 UTC (permalink / raw To: rms; +Cc: emacs-devel On 07/10/2010 08:51 AM, Richard Stallman wrote: > Many characters are special in regexps. I want no difficulties when > I search for characters such as [ or *. OK. That makes sense. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-08 14:26 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2010-07-08 14:53 ` Stuart Hacking @ 2010-07-08 15:09 ` Teemu Likonen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Teemu Likonen @ 2010-07-08 15:09 UTC (permalink / raw To: Stephen J. Turnbull; +Cc: Adrian Robert, emacs-devel * 2010-07-08 23:26 (+0900), Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > The other thing a lot of people complain about is Emacs regexps (why, > I'm not sure, they're mostly the same as vim's!), [...] Vim's regular expressions are more powerful than Emacs's. http://vimdoc.sourceforge.net/htmldoc/pattern.html#pattern-multi-items Emacs's syntax (\s \S) and character (\c \C) classes are better than anything but otherwise Vim has a lot more matcher atoms. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-08 7:44 ` joakim 2010-07-08 13:28 ` Adrian Robert @ 2010-07-08 13:54 ` Stuart Hacking 2010-07-09 3:05 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Stuart Hacking @ 2010-07-08 13:54 UTC (permalink / raw To: joakim; +Cc: Emacs Dev [emacs-devel] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1614 bytes --] On 8 July 2010 08:44, <joakim@verona.se> wrote: > > I dont know of any organized effort. > > I do try to attract people to Emacs and free software myself. > I think Emacs becomes very alluring when someone gets stuck on a laborious piece of text processing or searching. I've introduced a couple of people in work to it simply by virtue of regexp incremental search and keyboard macros. Now they're converts. I mostly work with developers that use a windoze desktop, Eclipse, and > some secondary simpler editor. In recent years getting people interested > in Emacs has been difficult, I can only recall about one or two people I > helped getting started with Emacs the last 3 years. > It's hard to come up with persuasive arguments for emacs in the face of shiny new development environments. I suppose things like drag and drop refactoring and graphical editors (property lists, forms, tree based xml) are popular. Is this a by product of Eclipse being quite difficult and cumbersome when you try to search for something? At home I use Emacs and JDE with Tags. In work I use Eclipse because it's the done thing. I often find myself copying large chunks of text into emacs to work with, then copying them back. As I mentioned, Emacs earns its stripes when people discover the joys of automating away the drudgery and then explore the other things they can do. Whenever I mention emacs to anyone though, I'm met with either a blank stare or "Hah, Emacs. Nice operating system, shame about the editor.", "Emacs? Eight megs and constantly swapping!" Just try it, friend. It's eight megs well spent. --Stuart [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2189 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-08 7:44 ` joakim 2010-07-08 13:28 ` Adrian Robert 2010-07-08 13:54 ` Stuart Hacking @ 2010-07-09 3:05 ` Richard Stallman 2010-07-09 3:24 ` Bernardo Barros ` (6 more replies) 2 siblings, 7 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2010-07-09 3:05 UTC (permalink / raw To: joakim; +Cc: fplemma, emacs-devel The Eclipse IDE has some nice features. Maybe CEDET gives us some of them, but maybe we still lack some. I saw it once, and it used tabs a lot for switching between different views. We need to be able to do that too. Also, one advantage of Eclipse's GUI interface is that it shows you a lot of features when they might be useful. So you don't have as much to learn and remember. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 3:05 ` Richard Stallman @ 2010-07-09 3:24 ` Bernardo Barros 2010-07-09 15:01 ` Stephen Eilert 2010-07-09 7:26 ` Aneesh Kumar K. V ` (5 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Bernardo Barros @ 2010-07-09 3:24 UTC (permalink / raw To: rms; +Cc: fplemma, joakim, emacs-devel 2010/7/9 Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>: > I saw it once, and it used tabs a lot for switching between different views. > We need to be able to do that too. Hi, Richard. Aquamacs-Emacs implemented tabs too. Just like Firefox and Eclipse. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 3:24 ` Bernardo Barros @ 2010-07-09 15:01 ` Stephen Eilert 2010-07-09 20:25 ` Rolando Pereira 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Stephen Eilert @ 2010-07-09 15:01 UTC (permalink / raw To: Bernardo Barros; +Cc: fplemma, rms, joakim, emacs-devel On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 12:24 AM, Bernardo Barros <bernardobarros2@gmail.com> wrote: > 2010/7/9 Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>: >> I saw it once, and it used tabs a lot for switching between different views. >> We need to be able to do that too. > > Hi, Richard. Aquamacs-Emacs implemented tabs too. Just like Firefox and Eclipse. > > Not exactly. I think that Richard is actually refering to "perspectives". A "perspective" in Eclipse is actually a collection of windows (using Emacs terminology). For instance, one can have a Java perspective, with a big editing window in the middle, a class tree on the left, class symbols on the right and a console on the bottom of the screen. And then a "Debug perspective", with the stack trace on top left, variables top right, editing in the center, and whatever else the user wants to display. You can do that in Aquamacs, if you take the time to configure it, splitting and switching to the desired buffers, for each tab. Just to lose it when Emacs close (mitigated by desktop-save) or when something switches one of the buffers you have painstakingly configured. In Eclipse, you can hide the frames temporarily, resize them, add or remove, or maximize the editing window. But usually you do not want to mess with them, as they contain useful information and are sort of "persistent". There are also per-file tabs, but these should be (and are, in Eclipse) distinct from the perspectives. Using Aquamacs' approach the two are mixed, so one would spend quite a lot of time fighting the interface. I seem to recall a discussion a while ago about "persistent windows". That, along with tabs, would duplicate Eclipse's perspectives quite nicely. What prevents people I know from switching to Emacs is that Emacs has no notion of "projects", and operations affecting files in a given project. While I think Eclipse's approach to be overkill, the way Textmate does it appears to be enough. --Stephen Sent from my Emacs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 15:01 ` Stephen Eilert @ 2010-07-09 20:25 ` Rolando Pereira 0 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Rolando Pereira @ 2010-07-09 20:25 UTC (permalink / raw To: emacs-devel Stephen Eilert <spedrosa@gmail.com> writes: > On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 12:24 AM, Bernardo Barros > <bernardobarros2@gmail.com> wrote: >> 2010/7/9 Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>: >>> I saw it once, and it used tabs a lot for switching between >>> different views. We need to be able to do that too. >> >> Hi, Richard. Aquamacs-Emacs implemented tabs too. Just like Firefox >> and Eclipse. >> > > Not exactly. > > I think that Richard is actually refering to "perspectives". A > "perspective" in Eclipse is actually a collection of windows (using > Emacs terminology). For instance, one can have a Java perspective, > with a big editing window in the middle, a class tree on the left, > class symbols on the right and a console on the bottom of the screen. > And then a "Debug perspective", with the stack trace on top left, > variables top right, editing in the center, and whatever else the user > wants to display. > > You can do that in Aquamacs, if you take the time to configure it, > splitting and switching to the desired buffers, for each tab. Just to > lose it when Emacs close (mitigated by desktop-save) or when something > switches one of the buffers you have painstakingly configured. > Couldn't Emacs simulate that using something like escreen[1] or elscreen[2]? Or maybe with the window-configuration-to-register and jump-to-register functions. I'm not sure how those options could be presented the user. Perhaps in a dropdown menu labeled "Perspectives". Although the use of registers would require, I think (since I'm not familiar with the code base), all buffers used on the perspectives to be created at startup, which would probably increase a lot the startup time, especially if there is a great number of perspectives. [1] http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsScreen [2] http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsLispScreen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 3:05 ` Richard Stallman 2010-07-09 3:24 ` Bernardo Barros @ 2010-07-09 7:26 ` Aneesh Kumar K. V 2010-07-09 11:02 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-09 7:31 ` christian.lynbech ` (4 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Aneesh Kumar K. V @ 2010-07-09 7:26 UTC (permalink / raw To: rms, joakim; +Cc: fplemma, emacs-devel On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 23:05:31 -0400, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote: > The Eclipse IDE has some nice features. Maybe CEDET gives us some of > them, but maybe we still lack some. > > I saw it once, and it used tabs a lot for switching between different views. > We need to be able to do that too. > > Also, one advantage of Eclipse's GUI interface is that it shows you a > lot of features when they might be useful. So you don't have as much > to learn and remember. Rather than features one of important thing to "fix" would be to make CEDET faster. Pushing some of CEDET related task to thread (when threading becomes available) or converting some of the performance sensitive code to C and call them from emacs would be a solution. Right now with CEDET enabled, it gets in the way of normal editing. I have to explicitly set semantic-idle-scheduler-idle-time to a higher value to prevent idle scheduler from kicking in early. -aneesh ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 7:26 ` Aneesh Kumar K. V @ 2010-07-09 11:02 ` Lennart Borgman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-09 11:02 UTC (permalink / raw To: Aneesh Kumar K. V; +Cc: fplemma, rms, joakim, emacs-devel On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 9:26 AM, Aneesh Kumar K. V <aneesh.kumar@linux.vnet.ibm.com> wrote: > > Rather than features one of important thing to "fix" would be to make > CEDET faster. Pushing some of CEDET related task to thread (when > threading becomes available) or converting some of the performance > sensitive code to C and call them from emacs would be a solution. Right > now with CEDET enabled, it gets in the way of normal editing. I have to > explicitly set semantic-idle-scheduler-idle-time to a higher value to > prevent idle scheduler from kicking in early. Maybe threads are very important then? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 3:05 ` Richard Stallman 2010-07-09 3:24 ` Bernardo Barros 2010-07-09 7:26 ` Aneesh Kumar K. V @ 2010-07-09 7:31 ` christian.lynbech 2010-07-09 11:04 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-09 7:33 ` Emacs learning curve (was Re: Efforts to attract more users?) christian.lynbech ` (3 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: christian.lynbech @ 2010-07-09 7:31 UTC (permalink / raw To: rms@gnu.org; +Cc: fplemma@gmail.com, joakim@verona.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org >>>>> "Richard" == Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: Richard> ... it used tabs a lot for switching between different views. This is probably one (among several) key issue. I use frames quite a lot to separate different contexts (one 'main' frame, one for shell, one news/mail, one for web, etc.) but sometimes it feels a little that I am fighting emacs over this. Without having any firm evidence, I am prepared to believe that it is not immediate obvious to newcomers how to do a multiframe setup (or otherwise separate contexts). One thing I have noted with people using vi/vim is that they tend to have multiple vim instances in different xterms. It is surprisingly (at least to me) hard to teach them to open only one emacs instance and fetch files into that rather than trying to do it the vim way where you start a new emacs for each new file you want to work on. If that is one's mode of operation I have no problem understanding why emacs feels awkward. ------------------------+----------------------------------------------------- Christian Lynbech | christian #\@ defun #\. dk ------------------------+----------------------------------------------------- Hit the philistines three times over the head with the Elisp reference manual. - petonic@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 7:31 ` christian.lynbech @ 2010-07-09 11:04 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-09 11:24 ` Juanma Barranquero 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-09 11:04 UTC (permalink / raw To: christian.lynbech Cc: fplemma@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, joakim@verona.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 9:31 AM, <christian.lynbech@tieto.com> wrote: > > One thing I have noted with people using vi/vim is that they tend to > have multiple vim instances in different xterms. It is surprisingly (at > least to me) hard to teach them to open only one emacs instance and > fetch files into that rather than trying to do it the vim way where you > start a new emacs for each new file you want to work on. If that is one's > mode of operation I have no problem understanding why emacs feels > awkward. I am sure it is part of the problem. And the reason for it is IMO partly that emacs client does not start Emacs by default. (It does in the patched version of Emacs+EmacsW32 however.) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 11:04 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-09 11:24 ` Juanma Barranquero 2010-07-09 11:41 ` Lennart Borgman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2010-07-09 11:24 UTC (permalink / raw To: Lennart Borgman Cc: fplemma@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, joakim@verona.se, christian.lynbech On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 13:04, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: > And the reason for it is IMO > partly that emacs client does not start Emacs by default. (It does in > the patched version of Emacs+EmacsW32 however.) You could send patches for the standard Emacs... Hey! Didn't we have this conversation (a few times) before? :-) Juanma ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 11:24 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2010-07-09 11:41 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-09 12:58 ` Juanma Barranquero 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-09 11:41 UTC (permalink / raw To: Juanma Barranquero Cc: fplemma@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, joakim@verona.se, christian.lynbech On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 13:04, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: > >> And the reason for it is IMO >> partly that emacs client does not start Emacs by default. (It does in >> the patched version of Emacs+EmacsW32 however.) > > You could send patches for the standard Emacs... > > Hey! Didn't we have this conversation (a few times) before? :-) Yes, I know. Some things here has taken much more time than I wanted and I have had to skip it. If you want to I can send you the latest working version of emacsclient.c and so we can perhaps start where we left off. We easiest way to merge is probably changing some things in the trunk emacsclient.c to get it closer to my emacsclient.c first. Then we can see what really differs. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 11:41 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-09 12:58 ` Juanma Barranquero 2010-07-09 13:09 ` Lennart Borgman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2010-07-09 12:58 UTC (permalink / raw To: Lennart Borgman Cc: fplemma@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, joakim@verona.se, christian.lynbech On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 13:41, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: > If you want to I can send you the latest working version of > emacsclient.c and so we can perhaps start where we left off. No, as long as it is totally "reordered" wrt the trunk's version. > We > easiest way to merge is probably changing some things in the trunk > emacsclient.c to get it closer to my emacsclient.c first. Then we can > see what really differs. I think the idea is more like "you can change some things in your emacsclient.c to get it closer to the trunk's. Then we can see what really differs." Now, this is the point at which things stalled in all past attempts... Juanma ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 12:58 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2010-07-09 13:09 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-09 16:09 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2010-07-10 0:03 ` Juanma Barranquero 0 siblings, 2 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-09 13:09 UTC (permalink / raw To: Juanma Barranquero Cc: fplemma@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, joakim@verona.se, christian.lynbech On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 13:41, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: > >> If you want to I can send you the latest working version of >> emacsclient.c and so we can perhaps start where we left off. > > No, as long as it is totally "reordered" wrt the trunk's version. The reordering is done exactly to make emacsclient.c start Emacs when needed. So I do not understand what you ask for. >> We >> easiest way to merge is probably changing some things in the trunk >> emacsclient.c to get it closer to my emacsclient.c first. Then we can >> see what really differs. > > I think the idea is more like "you can change some things in your > emacsclient.c to get it closer to the trunk's. Then we can see what > really differs." I can make it totally equal the emacsclient.c in the trunk. But it will not help ;-) > Now, this is the point at which things stalled in all past attempts... > > Juanma > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 13:09 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-09 16:09 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2010-07-09 16:42 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-10 0:03 ` Juanma Barranquero 1 sibling, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2010-07-09 16:09 UTC (permalink / raw To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: Juanma Barranquero, emacs-devel@gnu.org Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: > On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 13:41, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> If you want to I can send you the latest working version of >>> emacsclient.c and so we can perhaps start where we left off. >> >> No, as long as it is totally "reordered" wrt the trunk's version. > > The reordering is done exactly to make emacsclient.c start Emacs when needed. > > So I do not understand what you ask for. I don't have the context for what you are talking about, what code are you trying to merge? But emacsclient.c is 1800 lines in trunk now, there's no complicated algorithms in there. It shouldn't be that complicated to use narrow-to-defun and merge function by function... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 16:09 ` Dan Nicolaescu @ 2010-07-09 16:42 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-09 17:05 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2010-07-10 19:15 ` Chong Yidong 0 siblings, 2 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-09 16:42 UTC (permalink / raw To: Dan Nicolaescu; +Cc: Juanma Barranquero, emacs-devel@gnu.org On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Dan Nicolaescu <dann@gnu.org> wrote: > Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: > >> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> wrote: >>> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 13:41, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> If you want to I can send you the latest working version of >>>> emacsclient.c and so we can perhaps start where we left off. >>> >>> No, as long as it is totally "reordered" wrt the trunk's version. >> >> The reordering is done exactly to make emacsclient.c start Emacs when needed. >> >> So I do not understand what you ask for. > > I don't have the context for what you are talking about, what code are you trying to merge? > But emacsclient.c is 1800 lines in trunk now, there's no complicated algorithms in there. > It shouldn't be that complicated to use narrow-to-defun and merge function by function... I would be very glad if anyone has time to try to merge my version and the trunk version. My version is in two parts, the general part and the w32 part. I divided it this way to make the merge easier. Please take the files here, maybe make a temporary bzr repository for those two files and go ahead: http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/DL/C/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 16:42 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-09 17:05 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2010-07-09 17:07 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-10 19:15 ` Chong Yidong 1 sibling, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2010-07-09 17:05 UTC (permalink / raw To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: Juanma Barranquero, emacs-devel@gnu.org Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: > On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Dan Nicolaescu <dann@gnu.org> wrote: >> Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: >> >>> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 13:41, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> If you want to I can send you the latest working version of >>>>> emacsclient.c and so we can perhaps start where we left off. >>>> >>>> No, as long as it is totally "reordered" wrt the trunk's version. >>> >>> The reordering is done exactly to make emacsclient.c start Emacs when needed. >>> >>> So I do not understand what you ask for. >> >> I don't have the context for what you are talking about, what code are you trying to merge? >> But emacsclient.c is 1800 lines in trunk now, there's no complicated algorithms in there. >> It shouldn't be that complicated to use narrow-to-defun and merge function by function... > > > I would be very glad if anyone has time to try to merge my version and > the trunk version. > > My version is in two parts, the general part and the w32 part. I > divided it this way to make the merge easier. Please take the files > here, maybe make a temporary bzr repository for those two files and go > ahead: You might want to first explain why would we want to merge your version. > http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/DL/C/ There's some files there with some non-suggestive names (-my.c, -my-ok.c) and there's nothing that explains what changes where made and why... It looks like you would be the best person to do the merge... Given that there's not that much code, it can't take more than a couple of hours. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 17:05 ` Dan Nicolaescu @ 2010-07-09 17:07 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-09 17:24 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2010-07-09 17:29 ` Drew Adams 0 siblings, 2 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-09 17:07 UTC (permalink / raw To: Dan Nicolaescu; +Cc: Juanma Barranquero, emacs-devel@gnu.org On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Dan Nicolaescu <dann@gnu.org> wrote: > Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: > >> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Dan Nicolaescu <dann@gnu.org> wrote: >>> Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: >>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 13:41, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> If you want to I can send you the latest working version of >>>>>> emacsclient.c and so we can perhaps start where we left off. >>>>> >>>>> No, as long as it is totally "reordered" wrt the trunk's version. >>>> >>>> The reordering is done exactly to make emacsclient.c start Emacs when needed. >>>> >>>> So I do not understand what you ask for. >>> >>> I don't have the context for what you are talking about, what code are you trying to merge? >>> But emacsclient.c is 1800 lines in trunk now, there's no complicated algorithms in there. >>> It shouldn't be that complicated to use narrow-to-defun and merge function by function... >> >> >> I would be very glad if anyone has time to try to merge my version and >> the trunk version. >> >> My version is in two parts, the general part and the w32 part. I >> divided it this way to make the merge easier. Please take the files >> here, maybe make a temporary bzr repository for those two files and go >> ahead: > > You might want to first explain why would we want to merge your version. > >> http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/DL/C/ > > There's some files there with some non-suggestive names (-my.c, > -my-ok.c) and there's nothing that explains what changes where made > and why... > > It looks like you would be the best person to do the merge... Given > that there's not that much code, it can't take more than a couple of > hours. I am in a hurry right now. I think any .c versions are ok to start with. No, I am not the right person. I have suggested this to this list before and it was not accepted. Someone else should do it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 17:07 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-09 17:24 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2010-07-09 17:29 ` Drew Adams 1 sibling, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2010-07-09 17:24 UTC (permalink / raw To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: Juanma Barranquero, emacs-devel@gnu.org Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: > On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Dan Nicolaescu <dann@gnu.org> wrote: >> Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: >> >>> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Dan Nicolaescu <dann@gnu.org> wrote: >>>> Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 13:41, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> If you want to I can send you the latest working version of >>>>>>> emacsclient.c and so we can perhaps start where we left off. >>>>>> >>>>>> No, as long as it is totally "reordered" wrt the trunk's version. >>>>> >>>>> The reordering is done exactly to make emacsclient.c start Emacs when needed. >>>>> >>>>> So I do not understand what you ask for. >>>> >>>> I don't have the context for what you are talking about, what code are you trying to merge? >>>> But emacsclient.c is 1800 lines in trunk now, there's no complicated algorithms in there. >>>> It shouldn't be that complicated to use narrow-to-defun and merge function by function... >>> >>> >>> I would be very glad if anyone has time to try to merge my version and >>> the trunk version. >>> >>> My version is in two parts, the general part and the w32 part. I >>> divided it this way to make the merge easier. Please take the files >>> here, maybe make a temporary bzr repository for those two files and go >>> ahead: >> >> You might want to first explain why would we want to merge your version. >> >>> http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/DL/C/ >> >> There's some files there with some non-suggestive names (-my.c, >> -my-ok.c) and there's nothing that explains what changes where made >> and why... >> >> It looks like you would be the best person to do the merge... Given >> that there's not that much code, it can't take more than a couple of >> hours. > > I am in a hurry right now. I think any .c versions are ok to start with. > > No, I am not the right person. I have suggested this to this list > before and it was not accepted. Someone else should do it. You might want to try again, and first start by explaining what the new code does and why the changes were needed. Otherwise it's hard to convince anyone to work on code without knowing why... This still says that you are the most qualified to do the work... You can start in small steps: - identify new functions that you added, add those to the end of the file - identify functions that you've changed, merge changes one by one, and write ChangeLog entries explaining the change ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* RE: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 17:07 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-09 17:24 ` Dan Nicolaescu @ 2010-07-09 17:29 ` Drew Adams 2010-07-10 0:03 ` Juanma Barranquero 1 sibling, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2010-07-09 17:29 UTC (permalink / raw To: 'Lennart Borgman', 'Dan Nicolaescu' Cc: 'Juanma Barranquero', emacs-devel So now it seems that this thread has been diverted to a discussion about merging Lennart's emacsclient changes, who should do that, why... Next you'll be discussing each of those changes individually. Then... Why is it so difficult to _start a new thread_ when you change the subject? Here, FWIW, was the place where you turned off the road: >> And the reason for it is IMO >> partly that emacs client does not start Emacs by default. (It does in >> the patched version of Emacs+EmacsW32 however.) > > You could send patches for the standard Emacs... > Hey! Didn't we have this conversation (a few times) before? :-) Some discussion of emacsclient problems and improvements _might_ be appropriate for this thread, provided it remains tied to a discussion about attracting more users. But when you take a detour to pursue emacsclient implementation and merge details, you've left the road, probably forever. At best, you're on a side road. At worst, you're off into the swamp. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 17:29 ` Drew Adams @ 2010-07-10 0:03 ` Juanma Barranquero 0 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2010-07-10 0:03 UTC (permalink / raw To: Drew Adams; +Cc: Dan Nicolaescu, Lennart Borgman, emacs-devel On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 19:29, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote: > So now it seems that this thread has been diverted to a discussion about merging > Lennart's emacsclient changes, who should do that, why... Next you'll be > discussing each of those changes individually. Then... > > Why is it so difficult to _start a new thread_ when you change the subject? > > Here, FWIW, was the place where you turned off the road: > >>> And the reason for it is IMO >>> partly that emacs client does not start Emacs by default. (It does in >>> the patched version of Emacs+EmacsW32 however.) >> >> You could send patches for the standard Emacs... >> Hey! Didn't we have this conversation (a few times) before? :-) > > Some discussion of emacsclient problems and improvements _might_ be appropriate > for this thread, provided it remains tied to a discussion about attracting more > users. > > But when you take a detour to pursue emacsclient implementation and merge > details, you've left the road, probably forever. At best, you're on a side > road. At worst, you're off into the swamp. > > -- Juanma ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 16:42 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-09 17:05 ` Dan Nicolaescu @ 2010-07-10 19:15 ` Chong Yidong 2010-07-11 2:43 ` Lennart Borgman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Chong Yidong @ 2010-07-10 19:15 UTC (permalink / raw To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: Dan Nicolaescu, emacs-devel@gnu.org, Juanma Barranquero Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: > I would be very glad if anyone has time to try to merge my version and > the trunk version. This discussion brings to mind a quote by the physicist Wolfgang Pauli. In 1958, writing about on a colleague's (specious) claims to have found a unified field theory, he drew a big blank rectangle, and remarked: This is to show the world that I can paint like Titian. Only technical details are missing. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-10 19:15 ` Chong Yidong @ 2010-07-11 2:43 ` Lennart Borgman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-11 2:43 UTC (permalink / raw To: Chong Yidong; +Cc: Dan Nicolaescu, emacs-devel@gnu.org, Juanma Barranquero On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 9:15 PM, Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> wrote: > Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: > >> I would be very glad if anyone has time to try to merge my version and >> the trunk version. > > This discussion brings to mind a quote by the physicist Wolfgang Pauli. > In 1958, writing about on a colleague's (specious) claims to have found > a unified field theory, he drew a big blank rectangle, and remarked: > > This is to show the world that I can paint like Titian. > Only technical details are missing. Hm. Quite creative association. Maybe it even can move things forward. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 13:09 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-09 16:09 ` Dan Nicolaescu @ 2010-07-10 0:03 ` Juanma Barranquero 2010-07-10 0:11 ` Lennart Borgman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2010-07-10 0:03 UTC (permalink / raw To: Lennart Borgman Cc: fplemma@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, joakim@verona.se, christian.lynbech On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 15:09, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: > The reordering is done exactly to make emacsclient.c start Emacs when needed. It's hard to believe that moving functions around is *exactly* what's needed to add functionality. > So I do not understand what you ask for. 1.- Move original emacsclient functions back to where they were. 2.- Do a diff, which should result in a list of the *real differences* between your emacsclient and the trunk's, instead of being a full file diff like it is now because of your reordering. 3.- Send the patch *and* a good ChangeLog, or some kind of explanation of the changes and what they do (and how they work, if it is not evident). 4.- Wait for comments. 5.- *Act* on those comments. 6.- Repeat 3-5 until everybody is (more or less) satisfied with the result. 7. Commit your changes or ask for them to be committed. Isn't that difficult, really. All you need is the intention of doing the work, instead of dumping your emacsclient and asking others to do it for you... Juanma ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-10 0:03 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2010-07-10 0:11 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-10 0:16 ` Juanma Barranquero 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-10 0:11 UTC (permalink / raw To: Juanma Barranquero Cc: fplemma@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, joakim@verona.se, christian.lynbech On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 2:03 AM, Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 15:09, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: > >> The reordering is done exactly to make emacsclient.c start Emacs when needed. > > It's hard to believe that moving functions around is *exactly* what's > needed to add functionality. Believe whatever you want. Or look into it. You might even be right, I did this long ago. >> So I do not understand what you ask for. > > 1.- Move original emacsclient functions back to where they were. > 2.- Do a diff, which should result in a list of the *real differences* > between your emacsclient and the trunk's, instead of being a full file > diff like it is now because of your reordering. > 3.- Send the patch *and* a good ChangeLog, or some kind of explanation > of the changes and what they do (and how they work, if it is not > evident). > 4.- Wait for comments. > 5.- *Act* on those comments. > 6.- Repeat 3-5 until everybody is (more or less) satisfied with the result. > 7. Commit your changes or ask for them to be committed. > > Isn't that difficult, really. All you need is the intention of doing > the work, instead of dumping your emacsclient and asking others to do > it for you... I have done the work. I simplified it to what it is now. If that is not accepted then just skip it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-10 0:11 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-10 0:16 ` Juanma Barranquero 2010-07-10 0:28 ` Lennart Borgman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2010-07-10 0:16 UTC (permalink / raw To: Lennart Borgman Cc: fplemma@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, joakim@verona.se, christian.lynbech On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 02:11, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: > Believe whatever you want. Or look into it. You might even be right, I > did this long ago. You seem to forget that I *did* (look into it) long ago. That's what I'm talking about. > I have done the work. I simplified it to what it is now. If that is > not accepted then just skip it. I'll be ready to "skip it" the day you're ready to stop accussing Emacs developers of ignoring your work every time you've got the opportunity. Perhaps you should be brave enough to accept that Emacs+EmacsW32 is a fork, because you're *not* interested in doing work to get most of these changes accepted back into mainstream Emacs. Juanma ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-10 0:16 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2010-07-10 0:28 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-10 23:43 ` Juanma Barranquero 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-10 0:28 UTC (permalink / raw To: Juanma Barranquero Cc: fplemma@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, joakim@verona.se, christian.lynbech On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 2:16 AM, Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> wrote: > On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 02:11, Lennart Borgman > <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Believe whatever you want. Or look into it. You might even be right, I >> did this long ago. > > You seem to forget that I *did* (look into it) long ago. That's what > I'm talking about. I told you at that time how to do the merge. You seemed to believe it could be done another way. Maybe you are right, but to me the way you wanted to do it looked like much more work. I ran out of time. >> I have done the work. I simplified it to what it is now. If that is >> not accepted then just skip it. > > I'll be ready to "skip it" the day you're ready to stop accussing > Emacs developers of ignoring your work every time you've got the > opportunity. > > Perhaps you should be brave enough to accept that Emacs+EmacsW32 is a > fork, because you're *not* interested in doing work to get most of > these changes accepted back into mainstream Emacs. I have told some times now that I am not interested in keeping the patches. I have thrown away some because I do not have time for all the merging. I do not accuse you of anything. I am just telling how I see the situation. Getting the thoughts behind the changes I suggest often takes too much time - even if I write the first part of the patch. Take for example the recent discussion about the display engine. There was too many misunderstandings so in the end I thought it was best to just drop it. Is someone is really interested I have left the explanations already. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-10 0:28 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-10 23:43 ` Juanma Barranquero 2010-07-11 2:40 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-12 0:23 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 0 siblings, 2 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2010-07-10 23:43 UTC (permalink / raw To: Lennart Borgman Cc: fplemma@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, joakim@verona.se, christian.lynbech On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 02:28, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: > I told you at that time how to do the merge. You seemed to believe it > could be done another way. Yes, you told me "here's my code, please adapt it to the trunk, as I don't have time to do it myself" (not exact quote, but that's the feeling). > Maybe you are right, but to me the way you > wanted to do it looked like much more work. I ran out of time. No, what I wanted was not more work. It was the same amount of work, but mostly done by you, instead of me. > I have told some times now that I am not interested in keeping the > patches. I have thrown away some because I do not have time for all > the merging. That does not mean that you haven't forked, only that you don't have the time to maintain it. > I do not accuse you of anything. I didn't say "me". > Take for example the recent discussion about the display engine. There > was too many misunderstandings so in the end I thought it was best to > just drop it. I remember the discussion. I got the feeling the misunderstandings were mainly on your part. Juanma ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-10 23:43 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2010-07-11 2:40 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-11 2:56 ` Juanma Barranquero 2010-07-12 0:23 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 1 sibling, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-11 2:40 UTC (permalink / raw To: Juanma Barranquero Cc: fplemma@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, joakim@verona.se, christian.lynbech On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 1:43 AM, Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> wrote: > On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 02:28, Lennart Borgman > <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I told you at that time how to do the merge. You seemed to believe it >> could be done another way. > > Yes, you told me "here's my code, please adapt it to the trunk, as I > don't have time to do it myself" (not exact quote, but that's the > feeling). OK, that is your impression, but not my intention. As I told you then I was/am unused to cvs and did not want to break anything in the repository or make things more difficult. We both wanted to make the merge. I suggested to make it stepwise by changing the function arguments the way I needed them for the new structure. It would have made the burden of merging easier, but I was not able to convince you of that. To still make it a bit easier I restructured the code so that a similar implementation could be used on all platform. I got no feedback on that either. Somewhere there I gave up. I realized I did not have time and I thought it be better to spend the time I had on nXhtml. And since such small changes I had proposed for emacsclient and for the menu system, key board etc where so difficult to get accepted I decided to try to work around the difficulties in Emacs for using multi major modes rather than proposing here changes that would have made it easier. I just did not had time to take the discussion since these parts are much more difficult. So all this had big consequences for me. >> Maybe you are right, but to me the way you >> wanted to do it looked like much more work. I ran out of time. > > No, what I wanted was not more work. It was the same amount of work, > but mostly done by you, instead of me. Maybe the big problem was that I did not commit this myself. It looks to me the amount of work trying to make it this way is several times bigger than trying to cooperate like this. By that I do not mean anyone of us where doing something especially wrong or that we did not try hard enought. Just that this type of cooperation means much more work. So I suggest we just give up on this here. I may or may not find time to switch to savannah from launchpad to do the merge myself. I am not sure, it depends a lot of what will happen in other areas of my life. Or someone else may find the time to look into how I structured this and do the merge. Or someone might redo it from scratch. All I hope is that this can be done. I do not really care how. I just realize our efforts so far have been unsuccessful. >> Take for example the recent discussion about the display engine. There >> was too many misunderstandings so in the end I thought it was best to >> just drop it. > > I remember the discussion. I got the feeling the misunderstandings > were mainly on your part. Really? Did you read my explanation then? (It is not important to me, but still I get irritated if the bug I was looking at gets ignored because of misunderstandings.) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-11 2:40 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-11 2:56 ` Juanma Barranquero 2010-07-11 3:13 ` Lennart Borgman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2010-07-11 2:56 UTC (permalink / raw To: Lennart Borgman Cc: fplemma@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, joakim@verona.se, christian.lynbech On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 04:40, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: > We both wanted to make the merge. I suggested to make it stepwise by > changing the function arguments the way I needed them for the new > structure. It would have made the burden of merging easier, but I was > not able to convince you of that. To still make it a bit easier I > restructured the code so that a similar implementation could be used > on all platform. I got no feedback on that either. Obviously we remember it quite differently. Let's drop the issue. > Maybe the big problem was that I did not commit this myself. Only if trying to reach consensus is seen as a big problem... > Just that this type of cooperation means much more > work. Much more work than what? You're basically saying that you can't be bothered to spend time discussing changes, so the answers you see are, either other people spends the time, or you commit the changes even if you suspect they wouldn't likely be accepted as is, or in some cases you know they are actively opposed. > I do not really care how. I just realize our > efforts so far have been unsuccessful. I'm glad to see you put it that way, because in most previous ocassions (including the one that triggered my intervention here) you said that you had patch X or Y but the developers weren't interested on them... > Really? Did you read my explanation then? (It is not important to me, > but still I get irritated if the bug I was looking at gets ignored > because of misunderstandings.) Misunderstanding is the operating word here. After a while, I find your posts in some given thread harder and harder to follow. Juanma ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-11 2:56 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2010-07-11 3:13 ` Lennart Borgman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-11 3:13 UTC (permalink / raw To: Juanma Barranquero Cc: fplemma@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, joakim@verona.se, christian.lynbech On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 4:56 AM, Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> wrote: > > Obviously we remember it quite differently. Let's drop the issue. Fine with me. >> Maybe the big problem was that I did not commit this myself. > > Only if trying to reach consensus is seen as a big problem... I was not talking of that problem. So it is not about that. >> Just that this type of cooperation means much more >> work. > > Much more work than what? Than when you do the commits yourself. > You're basically saying that you can't be > bothered to spend time discussing changes, so the answers you see are, > either other people spends the time, or you commit the changes even if > you suspect they wouldn't likely be accepted as is, or in some cases > you know they are actively opposed. Not at all. I am talking about the technical difficulties with cooperation. > I'm glad to see you put it that way, because in most previous > ocassions (including the one that triggered my intervention here) you > said that you had patch X or Y but the developers weren't interested > on them... It has sometimes seemed so to me, but looking back I think it is more about our limited resources. >> Really? Did you read my explanation then? (It is not important to me, >> but still I get irritated if the bug I was looking at gets ignored >> because of misunderstandings.) > > Misunderstanding is the operating word here. After a while, I find > your posts in some given thread harder and harder to follow. I often try to explain on another level if the previous message was not understood because it seems to me that this is necessary. I am not sure what the problem is. With some people here I find it very easy to communicate. With some it is quite hard. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-10 23:43 ` Juanma Barranquero 2010-07-11 2:40 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-12 0:23 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2010-07-12 1:41 ` Juanma Barranquero 2010-07-12 7:19 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 2 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2010-07-12 0:23 UTC (permalink / raw To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: Lennart Borgman, emacs-devel@gnu.org Back to the "attract more users" thread. Specifically, "attract more user/developers." Juanma Barranquero writes: > On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 02:28, Lennart Borgman > <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I told you at that time how to do the merge. You seemed to believe it > > could be done another way. > > Yes, you told me "here's my code, please adapt it to the trunk, as I > don't have time to do it myself" (not exact quote, but that's the > feeling). That's not the feeling I get at all. I don't have complete sympathy for Lennart, there is clearly some aspect of contributing to Emacs that he just doesn't get, leading to blocked communication with disheartening frequency. However, "take it or leave it" is NOT AT ALL what I get from his posts. There a separate issue, that when you submit working code to Emacs, you will be told to change it in ways that give you heartburn. Lennart has had *multiple* experiences where he has submitted working code, communications over the integration break down, and his code was refused, without anybody ever doing more than looking at it and saying "that can't work" (usually with a theoretical rationale that for whatever reason Lennart doesn't get). While (as I mention above), Lennart has to take some responsibility for the communications breakdown, I cannot at all blame him for not wanting to go through that again. One of the nice things about working on <beep>Emacs and <boop>Emacs, as well as projects like Python, Mailman, and Bazaar, is that sometimes (not always, of course) other people will do the work that you for whatever reason don't want to do. It's a shame that GNU Emacs, of all the projects in the world, feels so impoverished that its developers can't take time out to mentor somebody like Lennart, show him the ropes, and *teach* him how to make submissions that get accepted the first time around and require only minor adjustments and checks before integration to the trunk. I think in this case the proposed change is such an obvious winner that it's only Emacs-side stubbornness that prevents it from being implemented. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-12 0:23 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2010-07-12 1:41 ` Juanma Barranquero 2010-07-12 7:43 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2010-07-12 7:19 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2010-07-12 1:41 UTC (permalink / raw To: Stephen J. Turnbull; +Cc: Lennart Borgman, emacs-devel@gnu.org On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 02:23, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote: > That's not the feeling I get at all. Well, there were a couple times when I was in contact with him (I mean, I was really trying to help him get some code into Emacs), and that's the feeling I got. If your experience, from the times you've tried to help him (or mentor him, as you later describe) is different, lucky you. > Lennart has had *multiple* experiences where > he has submitted working code, communications over the integration > break down, and his code was refused, without anybody ever doing more > than looking at it and saying "that can't work" (usually with a > theoretical rationale that for whatever reason Lennart doesn't get). I cannot argue that what you said has not happened, because I sure am not going to go re-reading all these old threads. But certainly there's been more than a few times when nobody said "can't work", more like "please do the work", only to hear back "oh, that's a lot of time I don't have right now, just do it yourself". Followed by complains later on when nobody took on the invitation (which is what really irks me; I can understand he not wanting to do it, but not his complaining about others not doing it for him). > It's a shame that GNU Emacs, of all the projects in the world, feels > so impoverished that its developers can't take time out to mentor > somebody like Lennart, show him the ropes, and *teach* him how to make > submissions that get accepted the first time around and require only > minor adjustments and checks before integration to the trunk. What you describe as "can't work" interactions I'd describe as "take time out to mentor". So far the answer has no been encouraging. > I think > in this case the proposed change is such an obvious winner that it's > only Emacs-side stubbornness that prevents it from being implemented. Really? Is just that? How nice that you can so fully understand people's motives (and minds) to know that's the only thing that's happened. Juanma ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-12 1:41 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2010-07-12 7:43 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2010-07-12 8:20 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-12 8:21 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 2 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2010-07-12 7:43 UTC (permalink / raw To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: Lennart Borgman, emacs-devel@gnu.org Juanma Barranquero writes: > Well, there were a couple times when I was in contact with him (I > mean, I was really trying to help him get some code into Emacs), I don't know what it feels like to mentor Lennart, personally. I do know what it feels like to try to get code into Emacs, *and I won't try it again*. I'm an extreme case for several reasons, there are *plenty* of people willing to jump through the hoops (and I'm not talking about "papers"). But I bet there is also a fair amount of good code sitting around out there that people are unwilling to contribute because of the scutwork and bikeshedding entailed in getting anything into Emacs, and which experienced developers could whip into shape quite quickly if they just took the code and said "it will be our pleasure". > I cannot argue that what you said has not happened, because I sure am > not going to go re-reading all these old threads. But certainly > there's been more than a few times when nobody said "can't work", more > like "please do the work", only to hear back "oh, that's a lot of time > I don't have right now, just do it yourself". Followed by complains > later on when nobody took on the invitation (which is what really irks > me; I can understand he not wanting to do it, but not his complaining > about others not doing it for him). And if it turns out to be good code, it's cheap at ten times the price -- it took me ten years to learn to swallow my pride, and the investment was paid back in less than one in third-party contribs that got into mainline faster :-). If it turns out to be bad code upon review and attempted fix, you tell him so. If bad code happens twice, you tell him he'll have to find another mentor/channel to the mainline. IME it's well worth it. > > I think in this case the proposed change is such an obvious > > winner that it's only Emacs-side stubbornness that prevents it > > from being implemented. > > Really? Is just that? How nice that you can so fully understand > people's motives (and minds) to know that's the only thing that's > happened. Read what I wrote. Nothing about intentions. Only that this change (having a single program, named either "emacs" or "emacsclient", that if needed automatically starts an emacs daemon, and then connects to it) is a big win IMO, one that I've wanted for <buup>Emacs for a long time.[1] I can understand Richard or Miles or other non-Windows-user brushing it off; I don't understand you or Eli being willing to let this one go without at least trying to beat it into shape yourself, given that Lennart is probably not going to get it into Emacs himself (based on past experience, without assigning fault). All I'm saying is that sometimes it's worth doing the work yourself. Footnotes: [1] We of course actually do have a kludgy half-baked functionality, both on Windows and on *nix, but it doesn't make either traditional users or Windows/CUA types happy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-12 7:43 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2010-07-12 8:20 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-12 12:37 ` Richard Stallman 2010-07-12 8:21 ` David Kastrup 1 sibling, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2010-07-12 8:20 UTC (permalink / raw To: Stephen J. Turnbull; +Cc: lekktu, lennart.borgman, emacs-devel > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:43:38 +0900 > Cc: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>, > "emacs-devel@gnu.org" <emacs-devel@gnu.org> > > I don't know what it feels like to mentor Lennart, personally. I do > know what it feels like to try to get code into Emacs, *and I won't > try it again*. So you are talking about Lennart, but think about yourself. It would have been fair to tell that up front. More importantly, there's a world of difference between these two cases, even though the result might be similar. > But I bet there is also a fair amount of good code sitting around > out there that people are unwilling to contribute because of the > scutwork and bikeshedding entailed in getting anything into Emacs, > and which experienced developers could whip into shape quite quickly > if they just took the code and said "it will be our pleasure". I don't think there's ``a fair amount of code'' in this status. However, I hope you will understand that making the necessary changes for a contributor who is unwilling to make them by herself is not a good policy in the long run, because (1) it's hardly a good use of the limited time resources I have, and (2) we will need to do this forever, as the contributor doesn't want to adapt their practices to some minimal requirements of QA and code cleanness. He even refuses to reformat his code as to facilitate the review! > I can understand Richard or Miles or other non-Windows-user > brushing it off; I don't understand you or Eli being willing to let > this one go without at least trying to beat it into shape yourself, What's not to understand? I have no time for arguing with Lennart, and I have better use (developing bidi) for the few hours a week I have to work on Emacs. I'm willing to invest some portion of that time in teaching someone who genuinely wants to learn. I'm _un_willing to _waste_ it on endless arguments with someone who thinks they know better. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-12 8:20 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2010-07-12 12:37 ` Richard Stallman 2010-07-12 13:22 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2010-07-12 12:37 UTC (permalink / raw To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: lekktu, stephen, lennart.borgman, emacs-devel However, I hope you will understand that making the necessary changes for a contributor who is unwilling to make them by herself is not a good policy in the long run, because (1) it's hardly a good use of the limited time resources I have, and (2) we will need to do this forever, as the contributor doesn't want to adapt their practices to some minimal requirements of QA and code cleanness. He even refuses to reformat his code as to facilitate the review! Deciding to clean up someone else's feature is no different, in regard to these issues, from deciding to write a feature. You don't have time to write all the features that someone suggests and that you would like. That doesn't mean you must make a policy decision between implementing all suggestions and implementing none. You see the suggestions and sometimes you implement one. You can look at other people's patches the same way. There is nothing wrong, in principle, with cleaning up someone else's patch. It just takes work, and it may or may not be the way you want to contribute. In the end, if a person refuses to reformat or adapt his own patch, that doesn't make it impossible for us to use the patch, but does make it expensive. Sometimes someone else will decide to do this work for him, but usually not. The refusal will surely result in few of his patches' being installed, and when they are, it will be at the cost of more work for the rest of us. So it will mean he effectively contributes much less -- that is why it is unfortunate. But we have no reason to treat it as all or nothing. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-12 12:37 ` Richard Stallman @ 2010-07-12 13:22 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2010-07-12 13:22 UTC (permalink / raw To: rms; +Cc: lekktu, stephen, lennart.borgman, emacs-devel > From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> > CC: stephen@xemacs.org, lekktu@gmail.com, lennart.borgman@gmail.com, > emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 08:37:06 -0400 > > You can look at other people's patches the same way. There is nothing > wrong, in principle, with cleaning up someone else's patch. It just > takes work, and it may or may not be the way you want to contribute. > > In the end, if a person refuses to reformat or adapt his own patch, > that doesn't make it impossible for us to use the patch, but does make > it expensive. Sometimes someone else will decide to do this work for > him, but usually not. The refusal will surely result in few of his > patches' being installed, and when they are, it will be at the cost of > more work for the rest of us. So it will mean he effectively > contributes much less -- that is why it is unfortunate. I agree and support everything you say above. > But we have no reason to treat it as all or nothing. No such decision was made, definitely not by me. I was just explaining why things might end up this way even if no such decision was made. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-12 7:43 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2010-07-12 8:20 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2010-07-12 8:21 ` David Kastrup 1 sibling, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2010-07-12 8:21 UTC (permalink / raw To: emacs-devel "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> writes: > Juanma Barranquero writes: > > > Well, there were a couple times when I was in contact with him (I > > mean, I was really trying to help him get some code into Emacs), > > I don't know what it feels like to mentor Lennart, personally. I do > know what it feels like to try to get code into Emacs, *and I won't > try it again*. Well, I find it an awful pain to get non-trivial code into pretty much any large project. Problem is that the committer needs to feel comfortable about it, or it becomes Somebody Else's Problem (tm). And the typical committer is quite more likely to feel comfortable about his own code than about third-party code of similar code and documentation quality. Which does not serve to improve the mood of non-committing contributors. Now excellent coding skills and excellent social skills are not necessarily positively correlated. For me, the consequences are that I try to get commit access as soon as possible. Not because I deem my contributions are of better quality than that of others without commit access, but since the alternatives are so much more wasteful regarding everybody's time and nerves. AFAIK, however, Lennart _does_ have commit access and the skills to understand and heed others' suggestions, but is lacking time and motivation to follow through. That's a pity, but it won't become less of a pity by fingerpointing. I don't see how social and technical structures could be amended to create a better environment for getting the integration work done. Things work as good as they can, given the current "human resources". The results are not good enough, but it would not appear that anybody has an idea how to change this without waving a magical wand that changes what we have to work with. -- David Kastrup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-12 0:23 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2010-07-12 1:41 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2010-07-12 7:19 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-12 8:05 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 1 sibling, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2010-07-12 7:19 UTC (permalink / raw To: Stephen J. Turnbull; +Cc: lekktu, lennart.borgman, emacs-devel > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 09:23:48 +0900 > Cc: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>, > "emacs-devel@gnu.org" <emacs-devel@gnu.org> > > It's a shame that GNU Emacs, of all the projects in the world, feels > so impoverished that its developers can't take time out to mentor > somebody like Lennart, show him the ropes, and *teach* him how to make > submissions that get accepted the first time around and require only > minor adjustments and checks before integration to the trunk. Stephen, I'm sorry to break it to you, but you are talking out of ignorance. You've read one or two recent threads, formed your own illusion of what they tell, and now attack the wrong people based on that illusion. This is imply unfair. The facts are different. Indeed, a very small part of Lennart's patches were outright rejected, because they were based on wrong assumptions and ideas. However, most of his patches were not rejected. They got _reviewed_, and the review yielded _comments_ and requests for changes. The problem started when Lennart effectively refused to modify his code according to the comments. Instead, he argued time and again that his code was correct, and the reviewers were wrong. This led to endless discussions going in circles and leading nowhere, so people tend to cut their losses and stop responding. The result is that his patches are left hanging in the air. And after several such experiences, I cannot blame anyone for trying to cut their losses even _before_ entering the same vicious circle for the N+1st time. IOW, if there is stubbornness, you will find plenty of it -- on Lennart's side. His lack of will to compromise and hear to *mentors* and learn from them is profound, and doesn't seem to be prone to change any time soon. While Lennart is entitled to his views and ways of socializing with others, it is very hard to teach and mentor someone who in effect thinks, even if he doesn't say that explicitly, that he is always right. It's a shame that Emacs development seems to lose Lennart's resources of time and energy, but I really don't see how things could go differently, given his repeated attitude and lack of will to be taught and become part of a team. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-12 7:19 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2010-07-12 8:05 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2010-07-12 8:33 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2010-07-12 8:05 UTC (permalink / raw To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: lekktu, lennart.borgman, emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii writes: > requests for changes. The problem started when Lennart effectively > refused to modify his code according to the comments. I acknowledge that, and I've been following emacs-devel for about a decade now; my opinion of this case is *not* based on one or two recent interactions. See also my reply to Juanma. > IOW, if there is stubbornness, you will find plenty of it -- on > Lennart's side. Lennart is one individual. A individual non-committer's stubbornness is not a problem; if you don't feel like dealing with it, just put him in your killfile. Emacs's stubbornness (assuming it exists) *is* a problem; putting emacs-devel in your killfile just won't do. > It's a shame that Emacs development seems to lose Lennart's resources > of time and energy, but I really don't see how things could go > differently, It's very easy to see how it could go differently. Do what he asks, on a case by case business. Of course you have to get papers. And you have to reserve the right to make arbitrary changes to his contributed code. (That actually should go without saying, but in this case it might be a good idea to make it explicit.) But I suspect that as long as it works he won't even check what you did to fit it into Emacs coding style etc. And finally, the code has to be worth making an exception. Maybe I'm misjudging what this is worth to Emacs; on that, I concede that you and Juanma are far better judges than I ever will be. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-12 8:05 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2010-07-12 8:33 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-12 8:38 ` Deniz Dogan 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2010-07-12 8:33 UTC (permalink / raw To: Stephen J. Turnbull; +Cc: lekktu, lennart.borgman, emacs-devel > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> > Cc: lekktu@gmail.com, > lennart.borgman@gmail.com, > emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:05:05 +0900 > > > It's a shame that Emacs development seems to lose Lennart's resources > > of time and energy, but I really don't see how things could go > > differently, > > It's very easy to see how it could go differently. Do what he asks, > on a case by case business. Of course you have to get papers. And > you have to reserve the right to make arbitrary changes to his > contributed code. I explained elsewhere why I think this is not a good use of my time. I can easily understand why Juanma would think it's not a good use of his time, either. > But I suspect that as long as it works he won't even check what you > did to fit it into Emacs coding style etc. Wrong assumption. And, of course, coding conventions is not the only issue with these contributions. More often than not, the implementation is just plain wrong, based on purely phenomenological evidence, and lacking any real understanding of how the relevant parts of Emacs work. Explaining how things really work does not help, because the only outcome is another endless argument. > And finally, the code has to be worth making an exception. Maybe I'm > misjudging what this is worth to Emacs; on that, I concede that you > and Juanma are far better judges than I ever will be. Both of us (and Jason Rumney, when he had more time to spend on this) were always almost unanimous in our critical opinions. If you think it helped convince Lennart to budge, think again. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-12 8:33 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2010-07-12 8:38 ` Deniz Dogan 2010-07-12 8:53 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Deniz Dogan @ 2010-07-12 8:38 UTC (permalink / raw To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: lekktu, Stephen J. Turnbull, lennart.borgman, emacs-devel Is this discussion going anywhere? Seriously. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-12 8:38 ` Deniz Dogan @ 2010-07-12 8:53 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2010-07-12 8:53 UTC (permalink / raw To: emacs-devel Deniz Dogan <deniz.a.m.dogan@gmail.com> writes: > Is this discussion going anywhere? Seriously. Let's say that reference counting won't make it go away. -- David Kastrup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Emacs learning curve (was Re: Efforts to attract more users?) 2010-07-09 3:05 ` Richard Stallman ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2010-07-09 7:31 ` christian.lynbech @ 2010-07-09 7:33 ` christian.lynbech 2010-07-09 7:43 ` Emacs learning curve Masatake YAMATO 2010-07-09 11:01 ` Efforts to attract more users? Lennart Borgman ` (2 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: christian.lynbech @ 2010-07-09 7:33 UTC (permalink / raw To: rms@gnu.org; +Cc: fplemma@gmail.com, joakim@verona.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 197 bytes --] I failed to resist the urge to re-post the below picture on editor learning curves :-) I found it at http://unix.rulez.org/~calver/pictures/curves.jpg -- Christian [-- Attachment #2: curves.jpg --] [-- Type: image/jpeg, Size: 26488 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs learning curve 2010-07-09 7:33 ` Emacs learning curve (was Re: Efforts to attract more users?) christian.lynbech @ 2010-07-09 7:43 ` Masatake YAMATO 0 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Masatake YAMATO @ 2010-07-09 7:43 UTC (permalink / raw To: christian.lynbech; +Cc: fplemma, rms, joakim, emacs-devel > I failed to resist the urge to re-post the below picture on editor > learning curves :-) > > I found it at http://unix.rulez.org/~calver/pictures/curves.jpg Quite interesting. I guess the emacs curve is also applicable to "Lisp" in "learning curve for some common programming languages." Masatake YAMATO ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 3:05 ` Richard Stallman ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 2010-07-09 7:33 ` Emacs learning curve (was Re: Efforts to attract more users?) christian.lynbech @ 2010-07-09 11:01 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-11 4:37 ` Miles Bader ` (2 more replies) 2010-07-09 12:05 ` Eric M. Ludlam 2010-07-10 19:05 ` Tom Tromey 6 siblings, 3 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-09 11:01 UTC (permalink / raw To: rms; +Cc: fplemma, joakim, emacs-devel On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:05 AM, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote: > The Eclipse IDE has some nice features. Maybe CEDET gives us some of > them, but maybe we still lack some. > > I saw it once, and it used tabs a lot for switching between different views. > We need to be able to do that too. > > Also, one advantage of Eclipse's GUI interface is that it shows you a > lot of features when they might be useful. So you don't have as much > to learn and remember. I guess it would be much more easy to do that if Emacs could use for example wxWidgets. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 11:01 ` Efforts to attract more users? Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-11 4:37 ` Miles Bader 2010-07-11 10:48 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-11 15:49 ` Chong Yidong 2010-07-12 9:42 ` joakim 2 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2010-07-11 4:37 UTC (permalink / raw To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: fplemma, rms, joakim, emacs-devel Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: > I guess it would be much more easy to do that if Emacs could use for > example wxWidgets. Why? Emacs already uses GTK. -Miles -- Defenceless, adj. Unable to attack. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-11 4:37 ` Miles Bader @ 2010-07-11 10:48 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-11 13:24 ` Miles Bader 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-11 10:48 UTC (permalink / raw To: Miles Bader; +Cc: fplemma, rms, joakim, emacs-devel On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 6:37 AM, Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> wrote: > Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: >> I guess it would be much more easy to do that if Emacs could use for >> example wxWidgets. > > Why? Emacs already uses GTK. What I think is important is to follow platform conventions (when possible). Is that supported by GTK? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-11 10:48 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-11 13:24 ` Miles Bader 2010-07-11 13:55 ` Lennart Borgman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2010-07-11 13:24 UTC (permalink / raw To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: fplemma, rms, joakim, emacs-devel Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: >> Why? Emacs already uses GTK. > > What I think is important is to follow platform conventions (when possible). > > Is that supported by GTK? No clue. But wxwidgets is ancient, clunky, and bloated, and not something Emacs should be depending on lightly. -Miles -- Bigot, n. One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion that you do not entertain. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-11 13:24 ` Miles Bader @ 2010-07-11 13:55 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-11 13:59 ` Miles Bader 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-11 13:55 UTC (permalink / raw To: Miles Bader; +Cc: fplemma, rms, joakim, emacs-devel On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 3:24 PM, Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> wrote: > Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: >>> Why? Emacs already uses GTK. >> >> What I think is important is to follow platform conventions (when possible). >> >> Is that supported by GTK? > > No clue. > > But wxwidgets is ancient, clunky, and bloated, and not something Emacs > should be depending on lightly. I will not pretend to know anything about it but the latest release is from 2010-04-23. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-11 13:55 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-11 13:59 ` Miles Bader 2010-07-11 14:13 ` Lennart Borgman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2010-07-11 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: fplemma, rms, joakim, emacs-devel Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: >> But wxwidgets is ancient, clunky, and bloated, and not something Emacs >> should be depending on lightly. > > I will not pretend to know anything about it but the latest release is > from 2010-04-23. I don't mean it's not maintained. -Miles -- Helpmate, n. A wife, or bitter half. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-11 13:59 ` Miles Bader @ 2010-07-11 14:13 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-11 14:24 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-11 14:52 ` Bernardo Barros 0 siblings, 2 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-11 14:13 UTC (permalink / raw To: Miles Bader; +Cc: fplemma, rms, joakim, emacs-devel On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 3:59 PM, Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> wrote: > Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: >>> But wxwidgets is ancient, clunky, and bloated, and not something Emacs >>> should be depending on lightly. >> >> I will not pretend to know anything about it but the latest release is >> from 2010-04-23. > > I don't mean it's not maintained. No I am getting curious. You obviously know more than me about this. Why do you say wxWidget is ancient? (This is a little bit funny to use the word "ancient" here when Emacs is so old ;-) I know people have had negative opinions about it here before. It looked to me some of it was based on experience, but I am not sure. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-11 14:13 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-11 14:24 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-11 15:01 ` Alan Mackenzie 2010-07-11 14:52 ` Bernardo Barros 1 sibling, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2010-07-11 14:24 UTC (permalink / raw To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: fplemma, emacs-devel, rms, joakim, miles > From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 16:13:38 +0200 > Cc: fplemma@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, joakim@verona.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 3:59 PM, Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> wrote: > > Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: > >>> But wxwidgets is ancient, clunky, and bloated, and not something Emacs > >>> should be depending on lightly. > >> > >> I will not pretend to know anything about it but the latest release is > >> from 2010-04-23. > > > > I don't mean it's not maintained. > > No I am getting curious. You obviously know more than me about this. > Why do you say wxWidget is ancient? (This is a little bit funny to use > the word "ancient" here when Emacs is so old ;-) > > I know people have had negative opinions about it here before. It > looked to me some of it was based on experience, but I am not sure. According to their docs, wxWidgets is for C++, not for C, so Emacs cannot use it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-11 14:24 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2010-07-11 15:01 ` Alan Mackenzie 2010-07-11 15:31 ` Bernardo Barros 2010-07-11 17:28 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 2 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Alan Mackenzie @ 2010-07-11 15:01 UTC (permalink / raw To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: fplemma, rms, Lennart Borgman, joakim, emacs-devel, miles On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 05:24:42PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> > > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 16:13:38 +0200 > > Cc: fplemma@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, joakim@verona.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 3:59 PM, Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> wrote: > > > Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: > > >>> But wxwidgets is ancient, clunky, and bloated, and not something Emacs > > >>> should be depending on lightly. > > >> I will not pretend to know anything about it but the latest release is > > >> from 2010-04-23. > > > I don't mean it's not maintained. > > No I am getting curious. You obviously know more than me about this. > > Why do you say wxWidget is ancient? (This is a little bit funny to use > > the word "ancient" here when Emacs is so old ;-) > > I know people have had negative opinions about it here before. It > > looked to me some of it was based on experience, but I am not sure. > According to their docs, wxWidgets is for C++, not for C, so Emacs > cannot use it. In that case, couldn't we just convert our base code to C++, then we could use wxWidgets. (Hey, it's over 35 degrees (of the Celsius variety) here in Nuremberg; this doesn't encourage high quality hacking. I'm kind of wondering how far over Europe this blanket of smothering heat extends.) -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-11 15:01 ` Alan Mackenzie @ 2010-07-11 15:31 ` Bernardo Barros 2010-07-11 17:28 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Bernardo Barros @ 2010-07-11 15:31 UTC (permalink / raw To: Alan Mackenzie Cc: fplemma, rms, Lennart Borgman, joakim, emacs-devel, Eli Zaretskii, miles It's 21 celcius in Sao Paulo. Happy hacking day! 2010/7/11 Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>: > On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 05:24:42PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> > From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> >> > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 16:13:38 +0200 >> > Cc: fplemma@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, joakim@verona.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org > >> > On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 3:59 PM, Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> wrote: >> > > Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: >> > >>> But wxwidgets is ancient, clunky, and bloated, and not something Emacs >> > >>> should be depending on lightly. > >> > >> I will not pretend to know anything about it but the latest release is >> > >> from 2010-04-23. > >> > > I don't mean it's not maintained. > >> > No I am getting curious. You obviously know more than me about this. >> > Why do you say wxWidget is ancient? (This is a little bit funny to use >> > the word "ancient" here when Emacs is so old ;-) > >> > I know people have had negative opinions about it here before. It >> > looked to me some of it was based on experience, but I am not sure. > >> According to their docs, wxWidgets is for C++, not for C, so Emacs >> cannot use it. > > In that case, couldn't we just convert our base code to C++, then we > could use wxWidgets. > > (Hey, it's over 35 degrees (of the Celsius variety) here in Nuremberg; > this doesn't encourage high quality hacking. I'm kind of wondering how > far over Europe this blanket of smothering heat extends.) > > -- > Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-11 15:01 ` Alan Mackenzie 2010-07-11 15:31 ` Bernardo Barros @ 2010-07-11 17:28 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-11 21:25 ` John Yates 2010-07-12 0:25 ` Lennart Borgman 1 sibling, 2 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2010-07-11 17:28 UTC (permalink / raw To: Alan Mackenzie; +Cc: fplemma, rms, lennart.borgman, joakim, emacs-devel, miles > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 15:01:42 +0000 > Cc: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>, fplemma@gmail.com, > emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, joakim@verona.se, miles@gnu.org > From: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> > > > According to their docs, wxWidgets is for C++, not for C, so Emacs > > cannot use it. > > In that case, couldn't we just convert our base code to C++, then we > could use wxWidgets. Maybe Lennart will volunteer for that job. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-11 17:28 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2010-07-11 21:25 ` John Yates 2010-07-12 7:37 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-12 12:36 ` Richard Stallman 2010-07-12 0:25 ` Lennart Borgman 1 sibling, 2 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: John Yates @ 2010-07-11 21:25 UTC (permalink / raw To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: fplemma, rms, lennart.borgman, joakim, emacs-devel, Alan Mackenzie, miles On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: > >> From: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> >> >> In that case, couldn't we just convert our base code to C++, then we >> could use wxWidgets. > > Maybe Lennart will volunteer for that job. Bjarne Stroustrup pretty much beat Lennart to it. It is mostly a project decision to invoke the C++ rather than the C compiler. The gcc project recently took the plunge: http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2010-05/msg00705.html /john ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-11 21:25 ` John Yates @ 2010-07-12 7:37 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-12 12:36 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2010-07-12 7:37 UTC (permalink / raw To: John Yates; +Cc: fplemma, rms, lennart.borgman, joakim, emacs-devel, acm, miles > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 17:25:05 -0400 > From: John Yates <john@yates-sheets.org> > Cc: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>, fplemma@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, lennart.borgman@gmail.com, > joakim@verona.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org, miles@gnu.org > > On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: > > > >> From: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> > >> > >> In that case, couldn't we just convert our base code to C++, then we > >> could use wxWidgets. > > > > Maybe Lennart will volunteer for that job. > > Bjarne Stroustrup pretty much beat Lennart to it. It is mostly a > project decision to invoke the C++ rather than the C compiler. Compiling ANSI C sources with a C++ compiler is a relatively trivial job. Most of the work is elsewhere: you need to actually use C++ features in order to compile and link against wxWidgets, see their documentation for details. And that would involve solving all kinds of potential incompatibilities, like the complex games we play with memory allocation, including, but not limited to, relocating buffers and strings behind the app's back, allocating off the pure space, etc. I don't think a C++ Emacs will fly without a private implementation of `new' and friends, for example. And then we will need to figure out the possible incompatibilities with other toolkits, whose sources we don't own and don't control. So please don't try to pretend this as an easy decision and easy job. It's not. It's not impossible, of course; it just takes motivated individuals and enough time. If you are stepping forward, by all means, describe your plan and let's discuss it. > The gcc project recently took the plunge: I wish Emacs was as simple a project as GCC and had so many developers per area of expertise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-11 21:25 ` John Yates 2010-07-12 7:37 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2010-07-12 12:36 ` Richard Stallman 2010-07-12 12:47 ` Stephen Eilert 1 sibling, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2010-07-12 12:36 UTC (permalink / raw To: John Yates Cc: fplemma, lennart.borgman, joakim, emacs-devel, acm, eliz, miles C++ is a badly designed and ugly language. It would be a shame to use it in Emacs. The reason the GCC developers wanted to use it is for destructors and generics. These aren't much use in Emacs, which has GC and in which data types are handled at the Lisp level. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-12 12:36 ` Richard Stallman @ 2010-07-12 12:47 ` Stephen Eilert 2010-07-12 16:01 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Stephen Eilert @ 2010-07-12 12:47 UTC (permalink / raw To: rms Cc: fplemma, lennart.borgman, joakim, emacs-devel, acm, eliz, miles, John Yates On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 9:36 AM, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote: > C++ is a badly designed and ugly language. It would be a shame > to use it in Emacs. > > The reason the GCC developers wanted to use it is for destructors > and generics. These aren't much use in Emacs, which has GC and in > which data types are handled at the Lisp level. > > Indeed, I am left wondering why it was even proposed in the first place. Moving to C++ would be nonsense and a step backwards. If we are willing to put so much effort on it, modernizing Elisp would be a better starting point. That's mostly invisible to users and not relevant to this discussion, however. -- Stephen Sent from my Emacs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-12 12:47 ` Stephen Eilert @ 2010-07-12 16:01 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2010-07-12 17:25 ` Bernardo Barros 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2010-07-12 16:01 UTC (permalink / raw To: Stephen Eilert Cc: fplemma, rms, lennart.borgman, joakim, emacs-devel, acm, eliz, John Yates, miles Stephen Eilert writes: > Indeed, I am left wondering why [moving to C++] it was even > proposed in the first place. It wasn't. What was proposed is using a well-known cross-platform widget set. That widget set happens to provide C++ bindings but not C bindings. It's probably moot since several people who actually have used wxWidgets in a real project say it's not advantageous over GTK+. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-12 16:01 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2010-07-12 17:25 ` Bernardo Barros 2010-07-12 17:40 ` Eli Zaretskii ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Bernardo Barros @ 2010-07-12 17:25 UTC (permalink / raw To: Stephen J. Turnbull Cc: fplemma, rms, lennart.borgman, Stephen Eilert, emacs-devel, joakim, acm, eliz, miles, John Yates many people in the gnu world are using qt4. are there reasons not to consider it? 2010/7/12 Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org>: > Stephen Eilert writes: > > > Indeed, I am left wondering why [moving to C++] it was even > > proposed in the first place. > > It wasn't. What was proposed is using a well-known cross-platform > widget set. That widget set happens to provide C++ bindings but not C > bindings. > > It's probably moot since several people who actually have used > wxWidgets in a real project say it's not advantageous over GTK+. > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-12 17:25 ` Bernardo Barros @ 2010-07-12 17:40 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-13 1:33 ` Why not Qt4? (hi, Drew! was: Efforts to attract more users?) Stephen J. Turnbull ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2010-07-12 17:40 UTC (permalink / raw To: Bernardo Barros Cc: fplemma, rms, lennart.borgman, spedrosa, emacs-devel, joakim, acm, stephen, miles, john > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 14:25:00 -0300 > From: Bernardo Barros <bernardobarros2@gmail.com> > Cc: Stephen Eilert <spedrosa@gmail.com>, fplemma@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, > lennart.borgman@gmail.com, joakim@verona.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org, acm@muc.de, > eliz@gnu.org, John Yates <john@yates-sheets.org>, miles@gnu.org > > many people in the gnu world are using qt4. are there reasons not to > consider it? Qt is also C++. Besides, what's it got that we would like to have? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Why not Qt4? (hi, Drew! was: Efforts to attract more users?) 2010-07-12 17:25 ` Bernardo Barros 2010-07-12 17:40 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2010-07-13 1:33 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2010-07-13 2:37 ` Efforts to attract more users? Miles Bader 2010-07-13 13:51 ` Richard Stallman 3 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2010-07-13 1:33 UTC (permalink / raw To: Bernardo Barros; +Cc: emacs-devel Trimming the absurd CC list. Bernardo Barros writes: > many people in the gnu world are using qt4. are there reasons not to > consider it? A short summary: - There are already Emacs implementations for all platforms supported by Qt4. - Qt is not a GNU project, some of the already supported toolkits are. - TrollTech's position on licensing is suspect. Doesn't bother me in theory, actually, as I believe that Qt should be considered part of the OS[1] where available, but I suspect many core developers would be wary of any dependency on a company with a history of non-free licensing. I think Qt is a non-starter, except as a bikeshed-painting exercise. Footnotes: [1] By analogy to Motif. Note that AFAIK the official position of GNU and the FSF is clear that toolkits like GTK+ and Qt are *not* part of any free OS. Therefore they must be distributed under GPL-compatible licenses to be linked to Emacs. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-12 17:25 ` Bernardo Barros 2010-07-12 17:40 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-13 1:33 ` Why not Qt4? (hi, Drew! was: Efforts to attract more users?) Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2010-07-13 2:37 ` Miles Bader 2010-07-13 13:51 ` Richard Stallman 3 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2010-07-13 2:37 UTC (permalink / raw To: Bernardo Barros Cc: fplemma, rms, lennart.borgman, Stephen Eilert, emacs-devel, joakim, acm, Stephen J. Turnbull, eliz, John Yates Bernardo Barros <bernardobarros2@gmail.com> writes: > many people in the gnu world are using qt4. are there reasons not to > consider it? Mostly that there would be no point, as it doesn't offer any significant advantages over GTK, and has some clear problems -- notably it's a C++ toolkit (I personally like C++, but Emacs is not a C++ app). [I also have some personal gripes about qt4, e.g., it screws up font rendering in some cases if you have a ~/.fonts.conf file, but things like that are presumably bugs, and could theoretically be fixed.] -Miles -- Run away! Run away! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-12 17:25 ` Bernardo Barros ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2010-07-13 2:37 ` Efforts to attract more users? Miles Bader @ 2010-07-13 13:51 ` Richard Stallman 2010-07-13 13:56 ` Deniz Dogan 2010-07-13 15:24 ` Bernardo Barros 3 siblings, 2 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2010-07-13 13:51 UTC (permalink / raw To: Bernardo Barros Cc: fplemma, lennart.borgman, joakim, emacs-devel, spedrosa, acm, stephen, miles, eliz, john many people in the gnu world are using qt4. are there reasons not to consider it? Two: * GNU policy is to use other GNU packages by preference, and QT isn't GNU. * GNU policy is to use C by preference to C++. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-13 13:51 ` Richard Stallman @ 2010-07-13 13:56 ` Deniz Dogan 2010-07-13 15:07 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 2010-07-13 15:24 ` Bernardo Barros 1 sibling, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Deniz Dogan @ 2010-07-13 13:56 UTC (permalink / raw To: rms Cc: fplemma, lennart.borgman, spedrosa, emacs-devel, Bernardo Barros, joakim, acm, stephen, john, eliz, miles 2010/7/13 Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>: > many people in the gnu world are using qt4. are there reasons not to > consider it? > > Two: > > * GNU policy is to use other GNU packages by preference, and QT isn't > GNU. > > * GNU policy is to use C by preference to C++. > > Are these policies listed somewhere? -- Deniz Dogan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-13 13:56 ` Deniz Dogan @ 2010-07-13 15:07 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 2010-07-13 15:52 ` Deniz Dogan 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Alfred M. Szmidt @ 2010-07-13 15:07 UTC (permalink / raw To: Deniz Dogan Cc: fplemma, rms, lennart.borgman, spedrosa, emacs-devel, bernardobarros2, joakim, acm, stephen, miles, eliz, john [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8, Size: 400 bytes --] > many people in the gnu world are using qt4. are there reasons not to > consider it? > > Two: > > * GNU policy is to use other GNU packages by preference, and QT isn't > GNU. > > * GNU policy is to use C by preference to C++. Are these policies listed somewhere? They are listed in the GNU Maintainer Guidelines, the GNU mainfesto, and our project web page. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-13 15:07 ` Alfred M. Szmidt @ 2010-07-13 15:52 ` Deniz Dogan 2010-07-13 16:17 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Deniz Dogan @ 2010-07-13 15:52 UTC (permalink / raw To: ams Cc: fplemma, rms, lennart.borgman, spedrosa, emacs-devel, bernardobarros2, joakim, acm, stephen, miles, eliz, john 2010/7/13 Alfred M. Szmidt <ams@gnu.org>: > > many people in the gnu world are using qt4. are there reasons not to > > consider it? > > > > Two: > > > > * GNU policy is to use other GNU packages by preference, and QT isn't > > GNU. > > > > * GNU policy is to use C by preference to C++. > > Are these policies listed somewhere? > > They are listed in the GNU Maintainer Guidelines, the GNU mainfesto, > and our project web page. > Well, I don't find anything about C++ specifically in the maintainer guidelines and the manifesto... Never mind, it's not important. -- Deniz Dogan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-13 15:52 ` Deniz Dogan @ 2010-07-13 16:17 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2010-07-13 16:17 UTC (permalink / raw To: Deniz Dogan Cc: fplemma, rms, lennart.borgman, spedrosa, emacs-devel, bernardobarros2, ams, joakim, acm, stephen, miles, john > From: Deniz Dogan <deniz.a.m.dogan@gmail.com> > Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 17:52:08 +0200 > Cc: rms@gnu.org, fplemma@gmail.com, lennart.borgman@gmail.com, > spedrosa@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, bernardobarros2@gmail.com, > joakim@verona.se, acm@muc.de, stephen@xemacs.org, john@yates-sheets.org, > eliz@gnu.org, miles@gnu.org > > 2010/7/13 Alfred M. Szmidt <ams@gnu.org>: > > > many people in the gnu world are using qt4. are there reasons not to > > > consider it? > > > > > > Two: > > > > > > * GNU policy is to use other GNU packages by preference, and QT isn't > > > GNU. > > > > > > * GNU policy is to use C by preference to C++. > > > > Are these policies listed somewhere? > > > > They are listed in the GNU Maintainer Guidelines, the GNU mainfesto, > > and our project web page. > > > > Well, I don't find anything about C++ specifically in the maintainer > guidelines and the manifesto... Never mind, it's not important. Bad reference. See the "Source Language" node in the standards.info manual. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-13 13:51 ` Richard Stallman 2010-07-13 13:56 ` Deniz Dogan @ 2010-07-13 15:24 ` Bernardo Barros 1 sibling, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Bernardo Barros @ 2010-07-13 15:24 UTC (permalink / raw To: rms Cc: fplemma, lennart.borgman, joakim, emacs-devel, spedrosa, acm, stephen, miles, eliz, john That makes sense :-) 2010/7/13 Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>: > many people in the gnu world are using qt4. are there reasons not to > consider it? > > Two: > > * GNU policy is to use other GNU packages by preference, and QT isn't > GNU. > > * GNU policy is to use C by preference to C++. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-11 17:28 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-11 21:25 ` John Yates @ 2010-07-12 0:25 ` Lennart Borgman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-12 0:25 UTC (permalink / raw To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: fplemma, rms, joakim, emacs-devel, Alan Mackenzie, miles On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: >> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 15:01:42 +0000 >> Cc: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>, fplemma@gmail.com, >> emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, joakim@verona.se, miles@gnu.org >> From: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> >> >> > According to their docs, wxWidgets is for C++, not for C, so Emacs >> > cannot use it. >> >> In that case, couldn't we just convert our base code to C++, then we >> could use wxWidgets. > > Maybe Lennart will volunteer for that job. Why should I do that if I should have to fight all your misunderstandings? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-11 14:13 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-11 14:24 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2010-07-11 14:52 ` Bernardo Barros 1 sibling, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Bernardo Barros @ 2010-07-11 14:52 UTC (permalink / raw To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: fplemma, emacs-devel, rms, joakim, Miles Bader 2010/7/11 Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> > > No I am getting curious. You obviously know more than me about this. > Why do you say wxWidget is ancient? (This is a little bit funny to use > the word "ancient" here when Emacs is so old ;-) > just a though. "new" and "old" are not that relevant. but maybe a felling that it is going somewhere and it is actvelly being developed. Emacs is doing his job and going somewhere, striping down ancient things like the terminology I hope :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 11:01 ` Efforts to attract more users? Lennart Borgman 2010-07-11 4:37 ` Miles Bader @ 2010-07-11 15:49 ` Chong Yidong 2010-07-12 0:24 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-12 9:42 ` joakim 2 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Chong Yidong @ 2010-07-11 15:49 UTC (permalink / raw To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: fplemma, rms, joakim, emacs-devel Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: >> Also, one advantage of Eclipse's GUI interface is that it shows you a >> lot of features when they might be useful. So you don't have as much >> to learn and remember. > > I guess it would be much more easy to do that if Emacs could use for > example wxWidgets. You're just throwing stuff at a wall to see what sticks, without stopping to consider whether what you're saying makes sense. wxWidgets (which is just another graphical toolkit) has nothing to do with what you're replying to: >> shows you a lot of features when they might be useful. So you don't >> have as much to learn and remember. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-11 15:49 ` Chong Yidong @ 2010-07-12 0:24 ` Lennart Borgman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-12 0:24 UTC (permalink / raw To: Chong Yidong; +Cc: fplemma, rms, joakim, emacs-devel On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 5:49 PM, Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> wrote: > Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: > >>> Also, one advantage of Eclipse's GUI interface is that it shows you a >>> lot of features when they might be useful. So you don't have as much >>> to learn and remember. >> >> I guess it would be much more easy to do that if Emacs could use for >> example wxWidgets. > > You're just throwing stuff at a wall to see what sticks, without > stopping to consider whether what you're saying makes sense. wxWidgets > (which is just another graphical toolkit) has nothing to do with what > you're replying to: I think you could write something much more useful if you tried to understand what I am saying. >>> shows you a lot of features when they might be useful. So you don't >>> have as much to learn and remember. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 11:01 ` Efforts to attract more users? Lennart Borgman 2010-07-11 4:37 ` Miles Bader 2010-07-11 15:49 ` Chong Yidong @ 2010-07-12 9:42 ` joakim 2 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: joakim @ 2010-07-12 9:42 UTC (permalink / raw To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: fplemma, rms, emacs-devel Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: > On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:05 AM, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote: >> The Eclipse IDE has some nice features. Maybe CEDET gives us some of >> them, but maybe we still lack some. >> >> I saw it once, and it used tabs a lot for switching between different views. >> We need to be able to do that too. >> >> Also, one advantage of Eclipse's GUI interface is that it shows you a >> lot of features when they might be useful. So you don't have as much >> to learn and remember. > > I guess it would be much more easy to do that if Emacs could use for > example wxWidgets. I used wxWidgets a lot a couple of years ago when contributing to a midi sequencer. My opinion is that there would be no gain in converting any GTK project to wxWidgets. GTK is already cross-platform. wxWidgets uses GTK as its native peer set. Thus, wxWidgets is a subset of GTK, widget-wise anyway. Starting a new project from scratch is a slightly different story. > -- Joakim Verona ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 3:05 ` Richard Stallman ` (4 preceding siblings ...) 2010-07-09 11:01 ` Efforts to attract more users? Lennart Borgman @ 2010-07-09 12:05 ` Eric M. Ludlam 2010-07-09 12:23 ` Alex Ott 2010-07-10 19:05 ` Tom Tromey 6 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Eric M. Ludlam @ 2010-07-09 12:05 UTC (permalink / raw To: rms; +Cc: fplemma, joakim, emacs-devel On 07/08/2010 11:05 PM, Richard Stallman wrote: > The Eclipse IDE has some nice features. Maybe CEDET gives us some of > them, but maybe we still lack some. In some ways CEDET is "better" that Eclipse (code completion in C/C++ is better), and in others it falls behind, such as project management. (This I gather from comments I've read). Quite a while ago I realized I didn't have time to work on both the infrastructure that is CEDET, and user interfaces that use the infrastructure. Instead I'd write small tools that use the infrastructure in different ways to make sure everything was working correctly. A side effect is that CEDET feels like a big collection of very different little programs that have to be learned separately. What I'd like to tackle this winter is to try and figure out a more cohesive interface to the suite of underlying tools. The reason is that project management, code completion/parsing/navigation and template based code generation (for Makefiles) is tightly bound. The use of UML for understanding and writing code is tighly bound to code parsing, template based code generation, and project management. Having these 4 items be completely separate with different makes these dependencies unclear, and makes learning the tools appear more complicated that it really is. Eric ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 12:05 ` Eric M. Ludlam @ 2010-07-09 12:23 ` Alex Ott 2010-07-09 14:33 ` Aneesh Kumar K. V 2010-07-09 15:39 ` Efforts to attract more users? Leo 0 siblings, 2 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Alex Ott @ 2010-07-09 12:23 UTC (permalink / raw To: Eric M. Ludlam; +Cc: fplemma, rms, joakim, emacs-devel Re Eric M. Ludlam at "Fri, 09 Jul 2010 08:05:32 -0400" wrote: EML> On 07/08/2010 11:05 PM, Richard Stallman wrote: >> The Eclipse IDE has some nice features. Maybe CEDET gives us some of >> them, but maybe we still lack some. EML> In some ways CEDET is "better" that Eclipse (code completion in C/C++ is better), and in EML> others it falls behind, such as project management. (This I gather from comments I've EML> read). The biggest problem with CEDET is speed, and complexity of installation/configuration for projects - this is most often called problem, that I got as response for my articles and blog posts P.S. you can read some of comments at http://alexott.net/en/writings/emacs-devenv/EmacsCedet.html (JS is required) -- With best wishes, Alex Ott, MBA http://alexott.blogspot.com/ http://alexott.net http://alexott-ru.blogspot.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 12:23 ` Alex Ott @ 2010-07-09 14:33 ` Aneesh Kumar K. V 2010-07-12 1:57 ` CEDET speed issues [was Re: Efforts to attract more users?] Eric M. Ludlam 2010-07-09 15:39 ` Efforts to attract more users? Leo 1 sibling, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Aneesh Kumar K. V @ 2010-07-09 14:33 UTC (permalink / raw To: Alex Ott, Eric M. Ludlam; +Cc: fplemma, rms, joakim, emacs-devel On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 14:23:24 +0200, Alex Ott <alexott@gmail.com> wrote: > Re > > Eric M. Ludlam at "Fri, 09 Jul 2010 08:05:32 -0400" wrote: > EML> On 07/08/2010 11:05 PM, Richard Stallman wrote: > >> The Eclipse IDE has some nice features. Maybe CEDET gives us some of > >> them, but maybe we still lack some. > > EML> In some ways CEDET is "better" that Eclipse (code completion in C/C++ is better), and in > EML> others it falls behind, such as project management. (This I gather from comments I've > EML> read). > > The biggest problem with CEDET is speed, This is one of the main issue i also have. I would really like some of the CEDET related operation pushed to background and make it don't effect my editing task. But otherwise I am really happy with the feature provided. -aneesh ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* CEDET speed issues [was Re: Efforts to attract more users?] 2010-07-09 14:33 ` Aneesh Kumar K. V @ 2010-07-12 1:57 ` Eric M. Ludlam 0 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Eric M. Ludlam @ 2010-07-12 1:57 UTC (permalink / raw To: Aneesh Kumar K. V; +Cc: fplemma, Alex Ott, rms, joakim, emacs-devel On 07/09/2010 10:33 AM, Aneesh Kumar K. V wrote: > On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 14:23:24 +0200, Alex Ott<alexott@gmail.com> wrote: >> Re >> >> Eric M. Ludlam at "Fri, 09 Jul 2010 08:05:32 -0400" wrote: >> EML> On 07/08/2010 11:05 PM, Richard Stallman wrote: >> >> The Eclipse IDE has some nice features. Maybe CEDET gives us some of >> >> them, but maybe we still lack some. >> >> EML> In some ways CEDET is "better" that Eclipse (code completion in C/C++ is better), and in >> EML> others it falls behind, such as project management. (This I gather from comments I've >> EML> read). >> >> The biggest problem with CEDET is speed, > > This is one of the main issue i also have. I would really like some of > the CEDET related operation pushed to background and make it don't > effect my editing task. But otherwise I am really happy with the > feature provided. When CEDET is all-on, it certainly is busy anytime it first hits a project. It has to parse all the files and discover the extent of your project. In general, it postpones doing stuff as long as possible into idle time. If a user opens some new big file in some big project for the first time, scrolls down and hits "complete" on a line, it will go off into la-la land for a while to perform the operation. If the user instead opens that project browses around, gets a cup of coffee, and comes back and asks for a completion, it will be quite fast, often less than a second even on a relatively large project (think Linux Kernel sized.) When CEDET is doing busy-work during idle time, it should always be interruptible. If you press something like C-v or other nav command, it should stop and go do that instead. If it doesn't then there is clearly a loop in part of the code that needs the interrupt handler added. I've noticed this parsing big files sometimes but haven't found a good candidate spot to add the check. If a particular kind of completion always takes a long time, there is a profiler setup command you can use to capture your case for analysis in semantic-elp.el. It will save the results making it easier to share the results. My longer term plans involve pushing chunks of the busy work off to a separate process to avoid much of these problems. I also need the separate process to offload the database information from the Emacs process, keeping most of it on disk unless asked-for. Super large projects (like what I work on at work) will cause your whole machine to slow down because Emacs' working set gets so huge. (Eight Gig And Constantly Swapping?) My current thoughts on making this work is to create a separate standalone program to be run as service, much the way databases like Postgres is a service. It would fire off multiple "emacs -batch" slaves running CEDET which it would use to collect and process data. It would then manage disk files of Tag data, possibly in some new format. User run Emacses would also run CEDET, and connect to this service as a classic semanticdb backend. To me, this seems like the only way to maximize code re-use while also getting the desired work offload from the main Emacs process. I'll probably start digging into that seriously around November this year, but I'll be happy to discuss it before then if anyone has ideas for implementation short-cuts, etc. Eric ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 12:23 ` Alex Ott 2010-07-09 14:33 ` Aneesh Kumar K. V @ 2010-07-09 15:39 ` Leo 1 sibling, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Leo @ 2010-07-09 15:39 UTC (permalink / raw To: emacs-devel On 2010-07-09 13:23 +0100, Alex Ott wrote: > The biggest problem with CEDET is speed, and complexity of > installation/configuration for projects - this is most often called > problem, that I got as response for my articles and blog posts I am dying to see Emacs having a general-purpose powerful lisp as its foundation to build things upon. Leo -- Any Emacs contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-09 3:05 ` Richard Stallman ` (5 preceding siblings ...) 2010-07-09 12:05 ` Eric M. Ludlam @ 2010-07-10 19:05 ` Tom Tromey 6 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Tom Tromey @ 2010-07-10 19:05 UTC (permalink / raw To: rms; +Cc: fplemma, joakim, emacs-devel >>>>> "RMS" == Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: RMS> The Eclipse IDE has some nice features. Maybe CEDET gives us some of RMS> them, but maybe we still lack some. RMS> I saw it once, and it used tabs a lot for switching between RMS> different views. We need to be able to do that too. RMS> Also, one advantage of Eclipse's GUI interface is that it shows you a RMS> lot of features when they might be useful. So you don't have as much RMS> to learn and remember. I've used both Eclipse and Emacs for long stretches. For instance, I did most of my Classpath hacking in Eclipse for about 2 years. I wouldn't say that perspectives or the GUI are strong features of Eclipse. They are ok-ish at best. The Eclipse editor is notably bad, but this is compensated for by other features. I agree with you that the discoverability of Eclipse is better than that of Emacs. It still is not super, but it is certainly simpler in Eclipse to figure out how to check out a new project from a CVS server that you've never used before -- there is a wizard to walk you through all of it, including letting you see what modules and branches exist. (Some of Eclipse's advantages here have been partially negated by vc-dir.) The big feature in Eclipse that I loved was its excellent Java environment. The compiler works while you type. It can show errors immediately, suggest correct completions, show javadoc for the method named under point in a popup, do simple refactorings. The TAGS-like feature is always up-to-date, even when you haven't saved buffers. The CDT (Eclipse's C/C++ plugin) has similar features, but I have not used it as much. In the past it wasn't nearly as good as the Java support, but I hear it has gotten better in recent years. I still haven't used CEDET in a real way (my impression is that it is still mostly a lot of infrastructure and no applications -- ?). So, I don't know how it compares. Once nice thing about the Eclipse compiler is that it provides both analysis and code-generation, so whenever you save your buffers you are basically ready to start debugging. (This is only true for Java, not for C++.) My view is that there are a few things holding Emacs back from Eclipse-like awesomeness. Here they are in the hopes that someone with more time than me will fix them :-) * Lack of any notion of a project. .dir-locals is a step in that direction, but only a small one. A bunch more things should be project-specific: * TAGS files. * Compilation commands and buffer. * Debugger commands and buffer. * Bug database searches. (Emacs has nothing here, but you can hack it together with w3m; setting this up should be a lot simpler.) I could probably make most of this work already with the right buffer-local settings and some lisp hackery. But, I really shouldn't have to. * TAGS should auto-update at least on buffer save, maybe even dynamically. (I've made various failed stabs at this over the years.) * In Eclipse you can set up a new-file skeleton. This is nice for new users because it means their new files have the correct copyright header, etc, without any work. In Emacs you have to set this up by hand. * More things should be async; in fact, async operation should generally be the default, when possible. Emacs has gotten a lot better here, though there is still the occasionally annoying blocking delay. Saving buffers is sometimes slow (when VC kicks in to run git status or something like that); GNUS is a perennial pain; I think I filed a few bugs along these lines. * In Eclipse, compilation errors show up in the fringe of the appropriate buffer. This is a nice feature. Eclipse has a second non-scrolling fringe that shows markers for the whole buffer; you can click on these markers to jump to that position in the code. So, you can see at a glance how many errors there are in a given file. In many cases these markers also have a "quick fix" option -- for simple errors you can just click and Eclipse will fix your code without you having to type at all. Tom ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* RE: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-08 5:31 Efforts to attract more users? Ken Hori 2010-07-08 7:44 ` joakim @ 2010-07-08 16:56 ` Drew Adams 2010-07-08 23:28 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2010-08-02 13:24 ` Stefan Monnier 3 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2010-07-08 16:56 UTC (permalink / raw To: 'Ken Hori', 'Emacs Dev [emacs-devel]' > I'm not sure if Emacs is attracting new users the way it used to be. You're not sure. Neither is anyone else. > Certainly search volume has been going downhill for more than > several years (http://www.google.com/trends?q=emacs), and yet I > don't hear this issue being addressed here strongly enough. What issue? What isn't strong enough for your taste? Be specific. While you're at it, look at the Google trends for "software", "electronics", "web", "computer", "hand-held", "xml", "java", "lisp", "oracle", "ibm", "linux", "gnu", "open source", "intellectual property", "programming", "database", "user interface", "compiler", and "monitor". These are all "going downhill" in a worrisome way, the same as the Emacs trend. So are the trends for "music", "art", "genetics", "mathematics", "biology", "law", "disease", "united states", "europe", "washington", "new york", "san francisco", "mountains", "human rights", "literature", "magic mushrooms", "science", "agriculture", "industry", "commerce", "television", "university", "education", and "learning". Someone should alert the UN *now* - these important terms are not being defended anywhere nearly strongly enough. "United nations" itself is on the decline, but "un" is up. On the other hand, trends for the following do not have a pronounced downward trend: "god", "eggs", "peace", "war", "profit", "peanut butter", "heaven", "crisis", "equality", "taxes", "liberty", "visual studio", "chocolate", "market", "china", "apple", "shanghai", "paris", "darwin", "cassoulet", "bob dylan", "rolling stones", "microsoft", and "coca cola". It's hard to find anything flatter than "beer", "hamburger", "beauty", and "house", but "woman" and "breakdown" come close. Oh, and "duration" is also here for the duration. "Pizza" climbs steadily. "Watermelon" buzzes only in the northern-hemisphere summer, mirroring "depression" and "plow". "Riviera" is apparently only interesting when no one is there. "Kama sutra" has had a slow decline, except for a worm spike. "Martin luther king", "valentine", "easter", and "aids" blip onto the radar only for their nominal days. "Skill" is slowly on the rise, but "knowledge" is in precipitous decline. "Wisdom" pretends to steadily motor on, but "enlightenment" has no idea which way to turn. The good news is that the buzz for "happiness", "porn", "google", "twitter", "facebook", "iphone", "texting", "walmart", "mcdonalds", "carrefour", and "gin tonic" deafens! "trends" itself is slowly on the way down. Write a thesis on it. Summary: Emacs "going downhill" does not seem particularly noteworthy, at least as judged by your demonstration. Maybe the Emacs buzz, like the buzz around some of the other terms, is in fact slowyly droning down. So what? Buzz does not equate to attraction of new users. And attraction of new users is only one among many things that Emacs development should aim for. Periodically someone posts a message like yours here. There is a brief flurry of messages suggesting that Emacs urgently needs to add this or that feature of some other editor, UI, IDE, program, website or video game. The thread then goes downhill rather quickly. I would google-trend "emacs trend emacs-devel" right now, but I'm over-quota. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-08 5:31 Efforts to attract more users? Ken Hori 2010-07-08 7:44 ` joakim 2010-07-08 16:56 ` Drew Adams @ 2010-07-08 23:28 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2010-07-08 23:56 ` Fren Zeee 2010-08-02 13:24 ` Stefan Monnier 3 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2010-07-08 23:28 UTC (permalink / raw To: Ken Hori; +Cc: Emacs Dev [emacs-devel] Ken Hori <fplemma@gmail.com> writes: > I'm not sure if Emacs is attracting new users the way it used to be. > Certainly search volume has been going downhill for more than several years > (http://www.google.com/trends?q=emacs), and yet I don't hear this issue being > addressed here strongly enough. I hate to ask pedestrian sort of a question > like this, but are there any efforts specifically to attract more users? Emacs is very decentralized, things get done because a person starts something, and then other people might join. If you have ideas what to do, by all means, just go ahead! There are no direct efforts to attract users, more like efforts to keep up with the latest technologies (Gtk+, dbus, etc), improve usability, etc. It would be nice if we could attract more developers, more developers, means more interesting things done to attract users. There are many people developing various elisp packages, but they are mostly designed as add-ons, not with integration into emacs in mind. It would help a lot if we could convince more people to develop that way. org-mode is a great example of development, the rate that it's adding features, and how it integrates with just about anything is astonishing. We could use more of that... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-08 23:28 ` Dan Nicolaescu @ 2010-07-08 23:56 ` Fren Zeee 2010-07-09 0:22 ` Bernardo Barros 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Fren Zeee @ 2010-07-08 23:56 UTC (permalink / raw To: Dan Nicolaescu; +Cc: Ken Hori, Emacs Dev [emacs-devel] On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Dan Nicolaescu <dann@gnu.org> wrote: > > Ken Hori <fplemma@gmail.com> writes: > > > I hate to ask pedestrian sort of a question > > like this, but are there any efforts specifically to attract more users? Perhaps, by writing more colorful manuals more users could be attracted. :)) While on this topic, I googled for 15th edition of emacs.pdf but could not find it. The 14th edition had blue hyperlinks but 16th is devoid of it. A quick download link would be appreciated. Is there a page where all the older official compiled version of emacs and its manuals are stored ? Whats the command to check-out working sources for the earliest compilable version of emacs ? I want to try that. I am familiar with the following for example. svn checkout http://software.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/ software-read-only Cheers Franz Xe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-08 23:56 ` Fren Zeee @ 2010-07-09 0:22 ` Bernardo Barros 0 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Bernardo Barros @ 2010-07-09 0:22 UTC (permalink / raw To: Fren Zeee; +Cc: Ken Hori, Dan Nicolaescu, Emacs Dev [emacs-devel] I think if a person stay some time with emacs he/she will find it fantastic. But I know people that just give up because they don't see all the things Emacs can do, they just see a text editor that is different from any standard, including the documentation terminology and shortcuts. It mentions keys that just don't exist anymore, have its own terminology for simple things like "copy" and "paste", and a lot of it'sa shortcuts where design to keyboards that are not manufactured anymore. But they could leave before they realise they can customize every bit of the program, and that this terminology has its charm after all. I don't know... maybe just taking a look at the keyboards, see how they really are today, and the largely used terminology shoud help a lot. 2010/7/8 Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com>: > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Dan Nicolaescu <dann@gnu.org> wrote: >> >> Ken Hori <fplemma@gmail.com> writes: >> >> > I hate to ask pedestrian sort of a question >> > like this, but are there any efforts specifically to attract more users? > > Perhaps, by writing more colorful manuals more users could be attracted. :)) > > While on this topic, I googled for 15th edition of emacs.pdf but could > not find it. The 14th edition had blue hyperlinks but 16th is devoid > of it. A quick download link would be appreciated. Is there a page > where all the older official compiled version of emacs and its manuals > are stored ? Whats the command to check-out working sources for the > earliest compilable version of emacs ? I want to try that. I am > familiar with the following for example. > > svn checkout http://software.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/ software-read-only > > Cheers > Franz Xe > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-07-08 5:31 Efforts to attract more users? Ken Hori ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2010-07-08 23:28 ` Dan Nicolaescu @ 2010-08-02 13:24 ` Stefan Monnier 2010-08-02 13:32 ` Bernardo Barros 3 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2010-08-02 13:24 UTC (permalink / raw To: Ken Hori; +Cc: Emacs Dev [emacs-devel] > I'm not sure if Emacs is attracting new users the way it used to be. > Certainly search volume has been going downhill for more than several years > (http://www.google.com/trends?q=emacs), What are the units in the vertical direction? Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-08-02 13:24 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2010-08-02 13:32 ` Bernardo Barros 2010-08-02 20:15 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Bernardo Barros @ 2010-08-02 13:32 UTC (permalink / raw To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: Ken Hori, Emacs Dev [emacs-devel] 1.0 is the mean of the period 2010/8/2 Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>: >> I'm not sure if Emacs is attracting new users the way it used to be. >> Certainly search volume has been going downhill for more than several years >> (http://www.google.com/trends?q=emacs), > > What are the units in the vertical direction? > > > Stefan > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-08-02 13:32 ` Bernardo Barros @ 2010-08-02 20:15 ` Stefan Monnier 2010-08-02 20:30 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-08-03 6:40 ` Andreas Röhler 0 siblings, 2 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2010-08-02 20:15 UTC (permalink / raw To: Bernardo Barros; +Cc: Ken Hori, Emacs Dev [emacs-devel] >>> I'm not sure if Emacs is attracting new users the way it used to be. >>> Certainly search volume has been going downhill for more than several years >>> (http://www.google.com/trends?q=emacs), >> What are the units in the vertical direction? > 1.0 is the mean of the period So units are a ratio w.r.t all the searches. Is there a way to know the actual number of searches to which this corresponds? This way we could tell whether the number of searches is also going down (since it might still be going up if the ratio is going down slower than the total number of searches increases). Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-08-02 20:15 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2010-08-02 20:30 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-08-02 20:39 ` Jay Belanger 2010-08-03 6:40 ` Andreas Röhler 1 sibling, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2010-08-02 20:30 UTC (permalink / raw To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: Bernardo Barros, Ken Hori, Emacs Dev [emacs-devel] On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote: >>>> I'm not sure if Emacs is attracting new users the way it used to be. >>>> Certainly search volume has been going downhill for more than several years >>>> (http://www.google.com/trends?q=emacs), >>> What are the units in the vertical direction? >> 1.0 is the mean of the period > > So units are a ratio w.r.t all the searches. Is there a way to know the > actual number of searches to which this corresponds? This way we could > tell whether the number of searches is also going down (since it might > still be going up if the ratio is going down slower than the total > number of searches increases). Seems like google does not want to display the absolute numbers: http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2008/06/google-trends-with-numbers.html It also looks like Emacs is loosing ground to vim: http://www.google.com/trends?q=emacs,vim&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 Adding "eclipse" to the search shows that Eclipse is going up and that both vim and emacs are searched for much less .... Though the sun seems to be included in the eclipse searches. ;-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-08-02 20:30 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2010-08-02 20:39 ` Jay Belanger 0 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Jay Belanger @ 2010-08-02 20:39 UTC (permalink / raw To: emacs-devel; +Cc: jay.p.belanger Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: ... > It also looks like Emacs is loosing ground to vim: > > http://www.google.com/trends?q=emacs,vim&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 The lettered references on the right would seem to indicate that a lot of the "vim" searches have nothing to do with the text editor, though. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-08-02 20:15 ` Stefan Monnier 2010-08-02 20:30 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2010-08-03 6:40 ` Andreas Röhler 2010-08-03 8:11 ` Stuart Hacking 1 sibling, 1 reply; 103+ messages in thread From: Andreas Röhler @ 2010-08-03 6:40 UTC (permalink / raw To: emacs-devel; +Cc: monnier Am 02.08.2010 22:15, schrieb Stefan Monnier: >>>> I'm not sure if Emacs is attracting new users the way it used to be. >>>> Certainly search volume has been going downhill for more than several years >>>> (http://www.google.com/trends?q=emacs), >>>> >>> What are the units in the vertical direction? >>> >> 1.0 is the mean of the period >> > So units are a ratio w.r.t all the searches. Is there a way to know the > actual number of searches to which this corresponds? This way we could > tell whether the number of searches is also going down (since it might > still be going up if the ratio is going down slower than the total > number of searches increases). > > > Stefan > > > Hi Stefan, with respect to attracting new users, Emacs could do better right at the entrance: Emacs tutorial starts explaining NOTICE: The main purpose of the Emacs tutorial is to teach you the most important standard Emacs commands (key bindings). and proceeds that way walking the desert. My suggestion: leave the keys aside at the very beginning, tell user what Emacs is and why it should be used. The WHY for me is its extensibility. Instead of keys, I'd show with the first lines, how a function like "Go to the end" is easily changed: (defun stop-always-two-lines-before-end () "This function will put the cursor at the second line from bottom up. " (interactive) (end-of-buffer) (forward-line -2)) BTW a missing function `backward-line' points to another issue, Emacs may enhance in order to attract new users. Thanks a lot for all your efforts Andreas -- https://code.launchpad.net/~a-roehler/python-mode https://code.launchpad.net/s-x-emacs-werkstatt/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
* Re: Efforts to attract more users? 2010-08-03 6:40 ` Andreas Röhler @ 2010-08-03 8:11 ` Stuart Hacking 0 siblings, 0 replies; 103+ messages in thread From: Stuart Hacking @ 2010-08-03 8:11 UTC (permalink / raw To: Andreas Röhler; +Cc: monnier, emacs-devel On 3 August 2010 07:40, Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de> wrote: > > Hi Stefan, > > with respect to attracting new users, Emacs could > do better right at the entrance: > > Emacs tutorial starts explaining > > NOTICE: The main purpose of the Emacs tutorial is to teach you > the most important standard Emacs commands (key bindings). > > and proceeds that way walking the desert. > > My suggestion: leave the keys aside at the very beginning, > tell user what Emacs is and why it should be used. Would it be a simple first step to promote the 'Emacs Guided Tour' to the top of the help menu? This contains a run-down of features that would be interesting to new users. (By default this is on the start page, but if you disable the start page then it takes two clicks to find.) Would anyone object to renaming the 'Emacs Tutorial' to 'Learn Emacs Shortcuts'? --Stuart ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 103+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2010-08-03 8:11 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 103+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2010-07-08 5:31 Efforts to attract more users? Ken Hori 2010-07-08 7:44 ` joakim 2010-07-08 13:28 ` Adrian Robert 2010-07-08 14:26 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2010-07-08 14:53 ` Stuart Hacking 2010-07-09 21:46 ` Richard Stallman 2010-07-09 22:52 ` Christoph 2010-07-09 23:53 ` Chong Yidong 2010-07-10 14:51 ` Richard Stallman 2010-07-10 14:55 ` Christoph 2010-07-08 15:09 ` Teemu Likonen 2010-07-08 13:54 ` Stuart Hacking 2010-07-09 3:05 ` Richard Stallman 2010-07-09 3:24 ` Bernardo Barros 2010-07-09 15:01 ` Stephen Eilert 2010-07-09 20:25 ` Rolando Pereira 2010-07-09 7:26 ` Aneesh Kumar K. V 2010-07-09 11:02 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-09 7:31 ` christian.lynbech 2010-07-09 11:04 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-09 11:24 ` Juanma Barranquero 2010-07-09 11:41 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-09 12:58 ` Juanma Barranquero 2010-07-09 13:09 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-09 16:09 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2010-07-09 16:42 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-09 17:05 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2010-07-09 17:07 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-09 17:24 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2010-07-09 17:29 ` Drew Adams 2010-07-10 0:03 ` Juanma Barranquero 2010-07-10 19:15 ` Chong Yidong 2010-07-11 2:43 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-10 0:03 ` Juanma Barranquero 2010-07-10 0:11 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-10 0:16 ` Juanma Barranquero 2010-07-10 0:28 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-10 23:43 ` Juanma Barranquero 2010-07-11 2:40 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-11 2:56 ` Juanma Barranquero 2010-07-11 3:13 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-12 0:23 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2010-07-12 1:41 ` Juanma Barranquero 2010-07-12 7:43 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2010-07-12 8:20 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-12 12:37 ` Richard Stallman 2010-07-12 13:22 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-12 8:21 ` David Kastrup 2010-07-12 7:19 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-12 8:05 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2010-07-12 8:33 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-12 8:38 ` Deniz Dogan 2010-07-12 8:53 ` David Kastrup 2010-07-09 7:33 ` Emacs learning curve (was Re: Efforts to attract more users?) christian.lynbech 2010-07-09 7:43 ` Emacs learning curve Masatake YAMATO 2010-07-09 11:01 ` Efforts to attract more users? Lennart Borgman 2010-07-11 4:37 ` Miles Bader 2010-07-11 10:48 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-11 13:24 ` Miles Bader 2010-07-11 13:55 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-11 13:59 ` Miles Bader 2010-07-11 14:13 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-11 14:24 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-11 15:01 ` Alan Mackenzie 2010-07-11 15:31 ` Bernardo Barros 2010-07-11 17:28 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-11 21:25 ` John Yates 2010-07-12 7:37 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-12 12:36 ` Richard Stallman 2010-07-12 12:47 ` Stephen Eilert 2010-07-12 16:01 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2010-07-12 17:25 ` Bernardo Barros 2010-07-12 17:40 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-13 1:33 ` Why not Qt4? (hi, Drew! was: Efforts to attract more users?) Stephen J. Turnbull 2010-07-13 2:37 ` Efforts to attract more users? Miles Bader 2010-07-13 13:51 ` Richard Stallman 2010-07-13 13:56 ` Deniz Dogan 2010-07-13 15:07 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 2010-07-13 15:52 ` Deniz Dogan 2010-07-13 16:17 ` Eli Zaretskii 2010-07-13 15:24 ` Bernardo Barros 2010-07-12 0:25 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-11 14:52 ` Bernardo Barros 2010-07-11 15:49 ` Chong Yidong 2010-07-12 0:24 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-07-12 9:42 ` joakim 2010-07-09 12:05 ` Eric M. Ludlam 2010-07-09 12:23 ` Alex Ott 2010-07-09 14:33 ` Aneesh Kumar K. V 2010-07-12 1:57 ` CEDET speed issues [was Re: Efforts to attract more users?] Eric M. Ludlam 2010-07-09 15:39 ` Efforts to attract more users? Leo 2010-07-10 19:05 ` Tom Tromey 2010-07-08 16:56 ` Drew Adams 2010-07-08 23:28 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2010-07-08 23:56 ` Fren Zeee 2010-07-09 0:22 ` Bernardo Barros 2010-08-02 13:24 ` Stefan Monnier 2010-08-02 13:32 ` Bernardo Barros 2010-08-02 20:15 ` Stefan Monnier 2010-08-02 20:30 ` Lennart Borgman 2010-08-02 20:39 ` Jay Belanger 2010-08-03 6:40 ` Andreas Röhler 2010-08-03 8:11 ` Stuart Hacking
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