* Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
[not found] <E1KC8XT-0007F3-Io@monty-python.gnu.org>
@ 2008-06-27 9:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-27 9:48 ` Juanma Barranquero
` (3 more replies)
0 siblings, 4 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2008-06-27 9:21 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel
> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 03:35:46 -0400
> From: emacs-diffs-request@gnu.org
>
> Index: src/w32inevt.c
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /sources/emacs/emacs/src/w32inevt.c,v
> retrieving revision 1.40
> retrieving revision 1.41
> diff -u -b -r1.40 -r1.41
> --- src/w32inevt.c 14 May 2008 07:50:07 -0000 1.40
> +++ src/w32inevt.c 27 Jun 2008 07:34:53 -0000 1.41
> @@ -154,7 +154,7 @@
> if (mods & SCROLLLOCK_ON)
> retval |= w32_key_to_modifier (VK_SCROLL);
>
> - /* Just in case someone wanted the original behaviour, make it
> + /* Just in case someone wanted the original behavior, make it
Thanks, but are changes like this one really worth the trouble? Looks
like a terrible waste of energy (and bandwidth) to me.
If it were just one or two, fine; but I just counted about 10 dozens
of files, some of them quite old, modified like this.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 9:21 ` Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries? Eli Zaretskii
@ 2008-06-27 9:48 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-27 9:50 ` Miles Bader
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2008-06-27 9:48 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: Glenn Morris, emacs-devel
On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 11:21, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> Thanks, but are changes like this one really worth the trouble? Looks
> like a terrible waste of energy (and bandwidth) to me.
I've been guilty of such a "waste of energy" a couple times or five
(most famously the time that I removed trailing whitespace in 600 or
700 files at once) so take what I say with a whole kg. of salt...
But in this case, I'd like to point out that comments and ChangeLog
entries are not the public interface of Emacs, so I'm not sure of the
propriety of changing "behaviour" -> "behavior" and "generalise" ->
"generalize" etc. I've always felt that it was the committer's
prerogative to use his/her native idiolect in such cases.
Juanma
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 9:21 ` Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries? Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-27 9:48 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2008-06-27 9:50 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-27 10:56 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-27 9:56 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-06-27 15:38 ` Richard M Stallman
3 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Miles Bader @ 2008-06-27 9:50 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: Glenn Morris, emacs-devel
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> - /* Just in case someone wanted the original behaviour, make it
>> + /* Just in case someone wanted the original behavior, make it
>
> Thanks, but are changes like this one really worth the trouble? Looks
> like a terrible waste of energy (and bandwidth) to me.
Not to mention a generator of annoying merge conflicts.
I don't think we should do things like this, it's just pointless churn.
-Miles
--
Neighbor, n. One whom we are commanded to love as ourselves, and who does all
he knows how to make us disobedient.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 9:21 ` Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries? Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-27 9:48 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-27 9:50 ` Miles Bader
@ 2008-06-27 9:56 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-06-27 10:05 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-27 15:38 ` Richard M Stallman
3 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2008-06-27 9:56 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: Glenn Morris, emacs-devel
> Thanks, but are changes like this one really worth the trouble? Looks
> like a terrible waste of energy (and bandwidth) to me.
> If it were just one or two, fine; but I just counted about 10 dozens
> of files, some of them quite old, modified like this.
Agreed. I think we should make a point of accepting "any English".
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 9:56 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2008-06-27 10:05 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-27 10:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-27 12:16 ` Kenichi Handa
0 siblings, 2 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2008-06-27 10:05 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: Glenn Morris, Eli Zaretskii, emacs-devel
On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 11:56, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
> Agreed. I think we should make a point of accepting "any English".
I think it is a good idea to standardize on one variant in public
interfaces (documentation, docstrings, etc.) Language variability is
beautiful, but it might look as sloppy editing in a document.
Juanma
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 10:05 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2008-06-27 10:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-27 10:23 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-27 12:16 ` Kenichi Handa
1 sibling, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2008-06-27 10:12 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: rgm, monnier, emacs-devel
> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 12:05:50 +0200
> From: "Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com>
> Cc: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>, "Glenn Morris" <rgm@gnu.org>,
> emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 11:56, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>
> > Agreed. I think we should make a point of accepting "any English".
>
> I think it is a good idea to standardize on one variant in public
> interfaces (documentation, docstrings, etc.) Language variability is
> beautiful, but it might look as sloppy editing in a document.
I would even support requests to use US variants at the time patches
are posted here, or otherwise discussed. But to go back several years
and fix old log entries sounds way too far-fetched to me.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 10:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2008-06-27 10:23 ` Juanma Barranquero
0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2008-06-27 10:23 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: rgm, monnier, emacs-devel
On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 12:12, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> I would even support requests to use US variants at the time patches
> are posted here, or otherwise discussed. But to go back several years
> and fix old log entries sounds way too far-fetched to me.
Hmm. I've often fixed typos in ChangeLog entries several years old. My
(very weak) objection to this change is not related to time, but
(perceived, and highly subjective) adequacy or lack thereof.
Juanma
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 9:50 ` Miles Bader
@ 2008-06-27 10:56 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-27 11:40 ` Juanma Barranquero
0 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Miles Bader @ 2008-06-27 10:56 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel
I didn't realize you had gone and done it to just about every file in
emacs. Without any (apparent) warning.
In the future, before making changes that touch huge numbers of
files, please post here and ask whether it's OK first! Particularly for
changes that are of dubious utility.
-Miles
--
Future, n. That period of time in which our affairs prosper, our friends
are true and our happiness is assured.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 10:56 ` Miles Bader
@ 2008-06-27 11:40 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-27 12:01 ` Miles Bader
0 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2008-06-27 11:40 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Miles Bader; +Cc: Glenn Morris, emacs-devel
On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 12:56, Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> wrote:
> I didn't realize you had gone and done it to just about every file in
> emacs.
Well, let's not exaggerate. About 120 files, i.e., little more than 4%
of trunk (number-of-files-wise).
Juanma
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 11:40 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2008-06-27 12:01 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-27 13:43 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-27 18:14 ` Glenn Morris
0 siblings, 2 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Miles Bader @ 2008-06-27 12:01 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: Glenn Morris, emacs-devel
"Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
>> I didn't realize you had gone and done it to just about every file in
>> emacs.
>
> Well, let's not exaggerate. About 120 files, i.e., little more than 4%
> of trunk (number-of-files-wise).
Point taken... :-/
Still, such changes should be run through the mailing list first.
-Miles
--
Acquaintance, n. A person whom we know well enough to borrow from, but not
well enough to lend to.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 10:05 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-27 10:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2008-06-27 12:16 ` Kenichi Handa
2008-06-27 12:30 ` Miles Bader
` (3 more replies)
1 sibling, 4 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Kenichi Handa @ 2008-06-27 12:16 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: rgm, eliz, monnier, emacs-devel
In article <f7ccd24b0806270305m575f51u55ed49bc65b3c13@mail.gmail.com>, "Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
> On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 11:56, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
> > Agreed. I think we should make a point of accepting "any English".
> I think it is a good idea to standardize on one variant in public
> interfaces (documentation, docstrings, etc.) Language variability is
> beautiful, but it might look as sloppy editing in a document.
My ispell suggests "standardise" for "standardize".
Anyway, for me (a non native English speeker), the more
helpful thing is to standardise which word to use
(e.g. remove/delete, replace/substitute,
accept/permit/allow, preserve/retain, put/set/store,
property/attribute, vector/array, go-to/move-to,
cancel/undo, etc.) :-p
---
Kenichi Handa
handa@ni.aist.go.jp
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 12:16 ` Kenichi Handa
@ 2008-06-27 12:30 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-27 12:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Miles Bader @ 2008-06-27 12:30 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Kenichi Handa; +Cc: Juanma Barranquero, eliz, emacs-devel, monnier, rgm
Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> writes:
> Anyway, for me (a non native English speeker), the more
> helpful thing is to standardise which word to use
> (e.g. remove/delete, replace/substitute,
> accept/permit/allow, preserve/retain, put/set/store,
> property/attribute, vector/array, go-to/move-to,
> cancel/undo, etc.) :-p
It would be very helpful for native speakers as well, to standardize
those things ... :-)
[Obviously for some of them there's historical precedent in emacs, but
that isn't always clear without a lot of groveling around.]
-Miles
--
Opposition, n. In politics the party that prevents the Goverment from running
amok by hamstringing it.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 12:16 ` Kenichi Handa
2008-06-27 12:30 ` Miles Bader
@ 2008-06-27 12:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-27 12:52 ` Kenichi Handa
2008-06-27 13:46 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-30 13:43 ` Alan Mackenzie
3 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2008-06-27 12:34 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Kenichi Handa; +Cc: lekktu, emacs-devel, monnier, rgm
> From: Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org>
> CC: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, rgm@gnu.org, eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 21:16:25 +0900
>
> My ispell suggests "standardise" for "standardize".
"standardise" is the UK spelling, not the US spelling.
When you type "M-x ispell-change-dictionary RET ?", does the list of
possible completions include "american" or something similar? If it
does, try selecting that dictionary.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 12:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2008-06-27 12:52 ` Kenichi Handa
2008-06-27 16:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-27 16:54 ` Agustin Martin
0 siblings, 2 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Kenichi Handa @ 2008-06-27 12:52 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: lekktu, monnier, rgm, emacs-devel
In article <u1w2jdpjv.fsf@gnu.org>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> > From: Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org>
> > CC: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, rgm@gnu.org, eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> > Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 21:16:25 +0900
> >
> > My ispell suggests "standardise" for "standardize".
> "standardise" is the UK spelling, not the US spelling.
> When you type "M-x ispell-change-dictionary RET ?", does the list of
> possible completions include "american" or something similar? If it
> does, try selecting that dictionary.
It lists "amerian", "british", and "default".
By M-x ispell-change-dictionary RET american RET, my ispell
started to accept "standardise". But, when I select
"default", it seems that ispell get back to "british".
---
Kenichi Handa
handa@ni.aist.go.jp
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 12:01 ` Miles Bader
@ 2008-06-27 13:43 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-27 18:14 ` Glenn Morris
1 sibling, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2008-06-27 13:43 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Miles Bader; +Cc: Glenn Morris, emacs-devel
On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 14:01, Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> wrote:
> Still, such changes should be run through the mailing list first.
Agreed.
Juanma
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 12:16 ` Kenichi Handa
2008-06-27 12:30 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-27 12:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2008-06-27 13:46 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-28 1:02 ` Kenichi Handa
2008-06-30 13:43 ` Alan Mackenzie
3 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2008-06-27 13:46 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Kenichi Handa; +Cc: rgm, eliz, monnier, emacs-devel
On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 14:16, Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> wrote:
> Anyway, for me (a non native English speeker), the more
> helpful thing is to standardise which word to use
I was in 100% agreement with you until...
> (e.g. remove/delete
...you broke my Common Lisp heart. In a destructive way.
Juanma
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 9:21 ` Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries? Eli Zaretskii
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2008-06-27 9:56 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2008-06-27 15:38 ` Richard M Stallman
2008-06-27 16:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
3 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Richard M Stallman @ 2008-06-27 15:38 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: rgm, emacs-devel
Stylistic consistency is a good thing, so I'm glad Glen made these
changes.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 12:52 ` Kenichi Handa
@ 2008-06-27 16:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-27 16:54 ` Agustin Martin
1 sibling, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2008-06-27 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Kenichi Handa; +Cc: lekktu, monnier, rgm, emacs-devel
> From: Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org>
> CC: lekktu@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca,
> rgm@gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 21:52:38 +0900
>
> By M-x ispell-change-dictionary RET american RET, my ispell
> started to accept "standardise".
You mean "standardize", right?
> But, when I select "default", it seems that ispell get back to
> "british".
As I wrote elsewhere, you can change the default dictionary in Emacs.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 12:52 ` Kenichi Handa
2008-06-27 16:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2008-06-27 16:54 ` Agustin Martin
2008-06-28 2:01 ` Kenichi Handa
1 sibling, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Agustin Martin @ 2008-06-27 16:54 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 09:52:38PM +0900, Kenichi Handa wrote:
> By M-x ispell-change-dictionary RET american RET, my ispell
> started to accept "standardise". But, when I select
> "default", it seems that ispell get back to "british".
That means that the /usr/lib/ispell/default.{aff,hash} symlinks point to
the ispell British dictionary. Why British is set instead of American depends
on your distro, it might be hardcoded, it might be the result of en_{GB,UK}
being alphabetically before en_US when trying to guess a choice if there is
no exact match for your Japanese locale, ....
If there is no way to spellcheck Japanese with {ispell,flyspell}.el, you may
want to set ispell-local-dictionary to "american" (otherwise that may
interfere with your native spellchecking). If you want that only
when writing lisp code, there is surely an appropriate hook for that.
--
Agustin
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 15:38 ` Richard M Stallman
@ 2008-06-27 16:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2008-06-27 16:55 UTC (permalink / raw
To: rms; +Cc: rgm, emacs-devel
> From: Richard M Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> CC: rgm@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:38:46 -0400
>
> Stylistic consistency is a good thing, so I'm glad Glen made these
> changes.
I just think all that energy could have been invested in more useful
ways, that's all.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 12:01 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-27 13:43 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2008-06-27 18:14 ` Glenn Morris
2008-06-27 19:10 ` Juanma Barranquero
` (2 more replies)
1 sibling, 3 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Glenn Morris @ 2008-06-27 18:14 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Miles Bader; +Cc: Juanma Barranquero, emacs-devel
Miles Bader wrote:
> Still, such changes should be run through the mailing list first.
Dear mailing list,
I propose to fix the spellings of: honour, initialise, neighbour,
optimise, recognise.
Lines to be affected: ~ 0.006%.
Discuss.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 18:14 ` Glenn Morris
@ 2008-06-27 19:10 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-27 19:28 ` Jason Rumney
2008-06-28 6:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2008-06-27 19:10 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel, Miles Bader
> Dear mailing list,
>
> I propose to fix the spellings of: honour, initialise, neighbour,
> optimise, recognise.
>
> Lines to be affected: ~ 0.006%.
>
> Discuss.
Is nice to know that criticism does not affect you.
Juanma
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 18:14 ` Glenn Morris
2008-06-27 19:10 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2008-06-27 19:28 ` Jason Rumney
2008-06-28 13:20 ` Richard M Stallman
2008-06-28 6:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Jason Rumney @ 2008-06-27 19:28 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel
Glenn Morris wrote:
> Miles Bader wrote:
>
>> Still, such changes should be run through the mailing list first.
>
> Dear mailing list,
>
> I propose to fix the spellings of: honour, initialise, neighbour,
> optimise, recognise.
>
> Lines to be affected: ~ 0.006%.
>
> Discuss.
The Burma / Myanmar renaming was understandable as a political statement
given the events that were happening at the time. But what exactly have
the British done to trigger this?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 13:46 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2008-06-28 1:02 ` Kenichi Handa
2008-06-28 1:07 ` Juanma Barranquero
0 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Kenichi Handa @ 2008-06-28 1:02 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: rgm, eliz, monnier, emacs-devel
In article <f7ccd24b0806270646i2a689698ucc9928d595a12e0c@mail.gmail.com>, "Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
> On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 14:16, Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> wrote:
> > Anyway, for me (a non native English speeker), the more
> > helpful thing is to standardise which word to use
> I was in 100% agreement with you until...
> > (e.g. remove/delete
> ...you broke my Common Lisp heart. In a destructive way.
Sorry, but I can't catch what you mean.
---
Kenichi Handa
handa@ni.aist.go.jp
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-28 1:02 ` Kenichi Handa
@ 2008-06-28 1:07 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-28 1:50 ` Kenichi Handa
0 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2008-06-28 1:07 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Kenichi Handa; +Cc: rgm, eliz, monnier, emacs-devel
>> > (e.g. remove/delete
>
>> ...you broke my Common Lisp heart. In a destructive way.
>
> Sorry, but I can't catch what you mean.
It was a lame attempt at humor; you're excused for not getting it.
remove and delete are groups of functions (remove, remove-if,
remove-if-not, ec.) with similar behavior, but the remove* ones are
non-destructive (they return a new list) while the delete* ones are
destructive. So you wanting to conflate both terms produced a
cognitive disonance :)
Juanma
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-28 1:07 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2008-06-28 1:50 ` Kenichi Handa
0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Kenichi Handa @ 2008-06-28 1:50 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: rgm, eliz, monnier, emacs-devel
In article <f7ccd24b0806271807w316927cbt97f68fe02a7c48cf@mail.gmail.com>, "Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
> It was a lame attempt at humor; you're excused for not getting it.
> remove and delete are groups of functions (remove, remove-if,
> remove-if-not, ec.) with similar behavior, but the remove* ones are
> non-destructive (they return a new list) while the delete* ones are
> destructive. So you wanting to conflate both terms produced a
> cognitive disonance :)
Ah! :-)
---
Kenichi Handa
handa@ni.aist.go.jp
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 16:54 ` Agustin Martin
@ 2008-06-28 2:01 ` Kenichi Handa
0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Kenichi Handa @ 2008-06-28 2:01 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Agustin Martin; +Cc: emacs-devel
In article <20080627165431.GA4465@agmartin.aq.upm.es>, Agustin Martin <agustin.martin@hispalinux.es> writes:
> That means that the /usr/lib/ispell/default.{aff,hash} symlinks point to
> the ispell British dictionary. Why British is set instead of American depends
> on your distro, it might be hardcoded, it might be the result of en_{GB,UK}
> being alphabetically before en_US when trying to guess a choice if there is
> no exact match for your Japanese locale, ....
Thank you. I found that the symlink points to British dict.
As I don't know the correct way to change it
("% dpkg-reconfigure ispell" didn't work), I just re-installed
packages "ispell", "iamerican", "ibritish" in en_US locale.
Then, the default is set to American dict.
---
Kenichi Handa
handa@ni.aist.go.jp
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 18:14 ` Glenn Morris
2008-06-27 19:10 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-27 19:28 ` Jason Rumney
@ 2008-06-28 6:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-29 9:52 ` Richard M Stallman
2 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2008-06-28 6:48 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel
> From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 14:14:47 -0400
> Cc: Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> I propose to fix the spellings of: honour, initialise, neighbour,
> optimise, recognise.
What for?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 19:28 ` Jason Rumney
@ 2008-06-28 13:20 ` Richard M Stallman
2008-06-28 15:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-28 21:19 ` Jason Rumney
0 siblings, 2 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Richard M Stallman @ 2008-06-28 13:20 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Jason Rumney; +Cc: rgm, emacs-devel
The Burma / Myanmar renaming was understandable as a political statement
given the events that were happening at the time. But what exactly have
the British done to trigger this?
Nothing _now_. Emacs used to use American spellings uniformly,
but inconsistencies have crept in over the years. It was just now
that we noticed them and Glenn volunteered to clean them up.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-28 13:20 ` Richard M Stallman
@ 2008-06-28 15:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-28 21:19 ` Jason Rumney
1 sibling, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2008-06-28 15:10 UTC (permalink / raw
To: rms; +Cc: rgm, emacs-devel, jasonr
> From: Richard M Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 09:20:24 -0400
> Cc: rgm@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> The Burma / Myanmar renaming was understandable as a political statement
> given the events that were happening at the time. But what exactly have
> the British done to trigger this?
>
> Nothing _now_. Emacs used to use American spellings uniformly,
> but inconsistencies have crept in over the years. It was just now
> that we noticed them and Glenn volunteered to clean them up.
Inconsistencies in spelling in Emacs manuals and doc strings, i.e. in
text presented to the user, should indeed be fixed. But fixing
inconsistencies in old ChangeLog entries is IMO a waste of Glenn's
time and energy.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-28 13:20 ` Richard M Stallman
2008-06-28 15:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2008-06-28 21:19 ` Jason Rumney
2008-06-28 21:30 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-28 21:47 ` Juri Linkov
1 sibling, 2 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Jason Rumney @ 2008-06-28 21:19 UTC (permalink / raw
To: rms; +Cc: rgm, emacs-devel
Richard M Stallman wrote:
> The Burma / Myanmar renaming was understandable as a political statement
> given the events that were happening at the time. But what exactly have
> the British done to trigger this?
>
> Nothing _now_. Emacs used to use American spellings uniformly,
> but inconsistencies have crept in over the years. It was just now
> that we noticed them and Glenn volunteered to clean them up.
>
My understanding has always been that American spellings should be used
in documentation, but comments and ChangeLog entries do not require such
exertion of effort on the part of native English speakers to
deliberately misspell words in the American way.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-28 21:19 ` Jason Rumney
@ 2008-06-28 21:30 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-28 21:47 ` Juri Linkov
1 sibling, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Miles Bader @ 2008-06-28 21:30 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Jason Rumney; +Cc: rgm, rms, emacs-devel
Jason Rumney <jasonr@gnu.org> writes:
> My understanding has always been that American spellings should be used
> in documentation, but comments and ChangeLog entries do not require such
> exertion of effort on the part of native English speakers to
> deliberately misspell words in the American way.
Personally I rather _like_ seeing e.g. english spelling in code comments
etc. -- it reflects the author and adds some local flavor, and the
differences are so small that they do not affect readability (even for
non-native speakers).
Changing those things seems more like mindless pedantry and
obsessiveness than useful work.
-Miles
--
Cynic, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as
they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a
cynic's eyes to improve his vision.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-28 21:19 ` Jason Rumney
2008-06-28 21:30 ` Miles Bader
@ 2008-06-28 21:47 ` Juri Linkov
2008-06-28 22:45 ` Jason Rumney
1 sibling, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Juri Linkov @ 2008-06-28 21:47 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Jason Rumney; +Cc: rgm, rms, emacs-devel
>> The Burma / Myanmar renaming was understandable as a political statement
>> given the events that were happening at the time. But what exactly have
>> the British done to trigger this?
>>
>> Nothing _now_. Emacs used to use American spellings uniformly,
>> but inconsistencies have crept in over the years. It was just now
>> that we noticed them and Glenn volunteered to clean them up.
>
> My understanding has always been that American spellings should be used
> in documentation, but comments and ChangeLog entries do not require such
> exertion of effort on the part of native English speakers to
> deliberately misspell words in the American way.
What about i18n? Shouldn't commands that display documentation (like
`C-h f', `C-h v', ...) take into account the current locale and translate
default American spellings when the locale is `en_GB'? This should be much
easier to do than to translate documentation to other languages.
--
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-28 21:47 ` Juri Linkov
@ 2008-06-28 22:45 ` Jason Rumney
0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Jason Rumney @ 2008-06-28 22:45 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Juri Linkov; +Cc: rgm, rms, emacs-devel
Juri Linkov wrote:
> What about i18n? Shouldn't commands that display documentation (like
> `C-h f', `C-h v', ...) take into account the current locale and translate
> default American spellings when the locale is `en_GB'? This should be much
> easier to do than to translate documentation to other languages.
The translation itself might be easier, but it would be less useful than
translating to other languages, as generally English speakers have no
problem reading each others' spelling, even if it looks a little strange
sometimes. The important work is in making such translated documentation
possible. We've done it with the tutorial, and the manuals could be
translated the same way if we had volunteers to take on the rather large
job. We spent some time a while ago discussing ways to localize doc
strings, and I think a reasonable design can be found in that discussion
somewhere, but as is common with such discussions, everyone has an
opinion but noone seems to be interested enough to work on an
implementation.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-28 6:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2008-06-29 9:52 ` Richard M Stallman
2008-06-29 10:13 ` Juanma Barranquero
0 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Richard M Stallman @ 2008-06-29 9:52 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: rgm, emacs-devel
> I propose to fix the spellings of: honour, initialise, neighbour,
> optimise, recognise.
What for?
For consistency. Consistency looks good, both for maintainers
and (when visible to them) to the users.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-29 9:52 ` Richard M Stallman
@ 2008-06-29 10:13 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-29 11:06 ` Reiner Steib
2008-06-29 22:05 ` Richard M Stallman
0 siblings, 2 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2008-06-29 10:13 UTC (permalink / raw
To: rms; +Cc: rgm, Eli Zaretskii, emacs-devel
> For consistency. Consistency looks good, both for maintainers
> and (when visible to them) to the users.
Once you quoted Ralph Waldo Emerson's "A foolish consistency is the
hobgoblin of little minds" in this list, and (no offense intended) it
seems appropriate now.
Also, I agree with Miles: differences in spelling (in comments and
ChangeLog entries) add flavo[u]r. Much better that fixing "initialise"
in ChangeLog entries would be to fix bad grammar (there's a lot, and I
know it firsthand because I've perpetrated a few instances myself),
check for missing entries (there are a lot of these), duplicate
entries, non-monotonic times (days or weeks apart, not just arising
from time-zone differences), lots and lots of cases of using
"wildcards" to refer to several variables (which is against our
ChangeLog policies, AFAICS), etc. etc.
Juanma
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-29 10:13 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2008-06-29 11:06 ` Reiner Steib
2008-06-29 11:57 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-29 18:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-29 22:05 ` Richard M Stallman
1 sibling, 2 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Reiner Steib @ 2008-06-29 11:06 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: rgm, Eli Zaretskii, rms, emacs-devel
On Sun, Jun 29 2008, Juanma Barranquero wrote:
> Richard Stallman wrote:
>> For consistency. Consistency looks good, both for maintainers
>> and (when visible to them) to the users.
I don't care much about this issue, but when looking for a ChangeLog
entry or a comment, it is easier to search only for a single spelling
variant.
> Also, I agree with Miles: differences in spelling (in comments and
> ChangeLog entries) add flavo[u]r.
I'd guess it is much easier to unify the spelling globally than to
check if the location is user visible or not (comment vs. doc string,
etc.).
> Much better that fixing "initialise" in ChangeLog entries would be
> to fix bad grammar (there's a lot, and I know it firsthand because
> I've perpetrated a few instances myself), check for missing entries
> (there are a lot of these), duplicate entries, non-monotonic times
> (days or weeks apart, not just arising from time-zone differences),
> lots and lots of cases of using "wildcards" to refer to several
> variables (which is against our ChangeLog policies, AFAICS),
> etc. etc.
In contrast to s/initialise/initialize/g, this can't be done
automatically.
Bye, Reiner.
--
,,,
(o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- | PGP key available | http://rsteib.home.pages.de/
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-29 11:06 ` Reiner Steib
@ 2008-06-29 11:57 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-29 18:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2008-06-29 11:57 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Reiner Steib, rms, rgm, Eli Zaretskii, emacs-devel
On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 13:06, Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> wrote:
> but when looking for a ChangeLog
> entry or a comment, it is easier to search only for a single spelling
> variant.
That's evidently true, though I don't think I've ever done much
searching for comments, and only rarely for ChangeLog descriptions (as
opposed to files, variables and functions).
> I'd guess it is much easier to unify the spelling globally than to
> check if the location is user visible or not (comment vs. doc string,
> etc.).
Well, I don't agree (and I've done my quote of typo-fixing). For
starters, fixing typos in docstrings requires adding a ChangeLog
entry, while comment changes do not.
> In contrast to s/initialise/initialize/g, this can't be done
> automatically.
That would make these kinds of changes all the more valuable, then.
But anyway, no typo-fixing can be done automatically. There are
variables and functions with wrong spellings, for example.
Juanma
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-29 11:06 ` Reiner Steib
2008-06-29 11:57 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2008-06-29 18:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-29 19:53 ` Sam Steingold
1 sibling, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2008-06-29 18:02 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Reiner Steib; +Cc: lekktu, emacs-devel, rms, rgm
> From: Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc>
> Cc: rms@gnu.org, rgm@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,
> emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:06:42 +0200
>
> On Sun, Jun 29 2008, Juanma Barranquero wrote:
>
> > Richard Stallman wrote:
> >> For consistency. Consistency looks good, both for maintainers
> >> and (when visible to them) to the users.
>
> I don't care much about this issue, but when looking for a ChangeLog
> entry or a comment, it is easier to search only for a single spelling
> variant.
Do you really search ChangeLog files for common words like color and
flavor?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-29 18:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2008-06-29 19:53 ` Sam Steingold
2008-06-29 20:00 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-06-29 20:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 2 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Sam Steingold @ 2008-06-29 19:53 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
> * Eli Zaretskii <ryvm@tah.bet> [2008-06-29 21:02:23 +0300]:
>
>> From: Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc>
>> Cc: rms@gnu.org, rgm@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,
>> emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:06:42 +0200
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 29 2008, Juanma Barranquero wrote:
>>
>> > Richard Stallman wrote:
>> >> For consistency. Consistency looks good, both for maintainers
>> >> and (when visible to them) to the users.
>>
>> I don't care much about this issue, but when looking for a ChangeLog
>> entry or a comment, it is easier to search only for a single spelling
>> variant.
>
> Do you really search ChangeLog files for common words like color and
> flavor?
As a part of a complex regexp, sometimes.
More generally, I would like to offer my 2 kopecks on the issue.
Most people on this list are probably either native English speakers or
quite proficient with it, so this matter might seem unimportant to them.
However, not everyone in the world is, and the number of people with
poor English trying to read Emacs sources, including ChangeLogs and
comments, will only increase with time.
Believe it or not, good grammar is absolutely crucial to understanding
even a simple sentence (you need to study a foreign language as an adult
to truly appreciate this observation - however trivial it might seem to
a linguist), and consistent spelling would help a beginner a lot.
--
Sam Steingold (http://sds.podval.org/) on Fedora release 9 (Sulphur)
http://pmw.org.il http://honestreporting.com http://israelunderattack.slide.com
http://camera.org http://jihadwatch.org http://ffii.org http://truepeace.org
Hard work has a future payoff. Laziness pays off NOW.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-29 19:53 ` Sam Steingold
@ 2008-06-29 20:00 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-06-30 14:43 ` Richard M Stallman
2008-06-29 20:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman (gmail) @ 2008-06-29 20:00 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
Sam Steingold wrote:
> Believe it or not, good grammar is absolutely crucial to understanding
> even a simple sentence (you need to study a foreign language as an adult
> to truly appreciate this observation - however trivial it might seem to
> a linguist), and consistent spelling would help a beginner a lot.
At least for me I think grammar is much more important than those small
differences we are speaking about here. Of course for searching the
spelling plays a bigger role.
Did I tell about this list of the 1721 words we are talking about:
http://www.tysto.com/articles05/q1/20050324uk-us.shtml
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-29 19:53 ` Sam Steingold
2008-06-29 20:00 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
@ 2008-06-29 20:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-29 20:57 ` David Kastrup
1 sibling, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2008-06-29 20:20 UTC (permalink / raw
To: sds; +Cc: emacs-devel
> From: Sam Steingold <sds@gnu.org>
> Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:53:11 -0400
>
> >> I don't care much about this issue, but when looking for a ChangeLog
> >> entry or a comment, it is easier to search only for a single spelling
> >> variant.
> >
> > Do you really search ChangeLog files for common words like color and
> > flavor?
>
> As a part of a complex regexp, sometimes.
A complex regexp can catch both flavor and flavour without any
trouble.
> Believe it or not, good grammar is absolutely crucial to understanding
> even a simple sentence (you need to study a foreign language as an adult
> to truly appreciate this observation - however trivial it might seem to
> a linguist), and consistent spelling would help a beginner a lot.
Then I propose that we freeze development for a month and announce a
``Emacs consistent spelling month''. If we cannot spell right, we
shall not be allowed to program, either, because chances are, we will
not be able to read our own code. Heck, let's add a FOR-RELEASE item
to spell every file in the distro before each release.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-29 20:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2008-06-29 20:57 ` David Kastrup
0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2008-06-29 20:57 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: sds, emacs-devel
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> From: Sam Steingold <sds@gnu.org>
>> Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:53:11 -0400
>>
>> >> I don't care much about this issue, but when looking for a ChangeLog
>> >> entry or a comment, it is easier to search only for a single spelling
>> >> variant.
>> >
>> > Do you really search ChangeLog files for common words like color and
>> > flavor?
>>
>> As a part of a complex regexp, sometimes.
>
> A complex regexp can catch both flavor and flavour without any
> trouble.
If the user has the linguistic experience to be aware of the
availability of both spelling variants. We should not take this for
granted. If we have consistent spelling, the user will notice that he
does not find _anything_ rather than a random subset. This will much
more likely cause him to try searching with a variant spelling.
If you get no hits, you are more likely to reconsider rather than if you
get just half the possible hits.
Really, this variation does not help anybody. If somebody wants to
invest the time to clean this up and convert to reasonably conservative
American spelling (I don't care for "nite" instead of "night", for
example), then I don't think we should discourage it.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-29 10:13 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-29 11:06 ` Reiner Steib
@ 2008-06-29 22:05 ` Richard M Stallman
2008-06-29 22:26 ` Juanma Barranquero
1 sibling, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Richard M Stallman @ 2008-06-29 22:05 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: rgm, eliz, emacs-devel
Once you quoted Ralph Waldo Emerson's "A foolish consistency is the
hobgoblin of little minds" in this list, and (no offense intended) it
seems appropriate now.
Are you accusing me of being inconsistent, then ;-)?
Often it is a mistake to sacrifice something else for consistency.
But here there is no sacrifice. If Glenn wants to spend his time
this way, why argue?
in ChangeLog entries would be to fix bad grammar (there's a lot, and I
know it firsthand because I've perpetrated a few instances myself),
check for missing entries (there are a lot of these), duplicate
entries, non-monotonic times (days or weeks apart, not just arising
from time-zone differences), lots and lots of cases of using
"wildcards" to refer to several variables (which is against our
ChangeLog policies, AFAICS), etc. etc.
Please fix them if you can.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-29 22:05 ` Richard M Stallman
@ 2008-06-29 22:26 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-29 22:29 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-30 5:25 ` David Kastrup
0 siblings, 2 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2008-06-29 22:26 UTC (permalink / raw
To: rms; +Cc: rgm, eliz, emacs-devel
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 00:05, Richard M Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
> Are you accusing me of being inconsistent, then ;-)?
Well, now that you mention it...
> But here there is no sacrifice. If Glenn wants to spend his time
> this way, why argue?
Fair enough. My comments are only because I think some of the authors
of the entries would want their linguistic flavour preserved. It is
akin to making a pass and removing the lighthearted or ironic comments
(and there are quite a few of them).
> Please fix them if you can.
I do, every now and them.
Juanma
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-29 22:26 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2008-06-29 22:29 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-30 5:25 ` David Kastrup
1 sibling, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2008-06-29 22:29 UTC (permalink / raw
To: rms; +Cc: rgm, eliz, emacs-devel
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 00:26, Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> wrote:
> I do, every now and them.
Funny, given the thread. s/m/n/, of course.
Juanma
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-29 22:26 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-29 22:29 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2008-06-30 5:25 ` David Kastrup
2008-06-30 7:48 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-30 9:49 ` Alan Mackenzie
1 sibling, 2 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2008-06-30 5:25 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: rgm, eliz, rms, emacs-devel
"Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 00:05, Richard M Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>> Are you accusing me of being inconsistent, then ;-)?
>
> Well, now that you mention it...
>
>> But here there is no sacrifice. If Glenn wants to spend his time
>> this way, why argue?
>
> Fair enough. My comments are only because I think some of the authors
> of the entries would want their linguistic flavour preserved.
Well, those authors are presumably reading the Emacs developer list when
they are bothered about what happens "downstream" with their
contribution. So they can speak up for themselves.
There is no need to invent hypothetical people to complicate things.
> It is akin to making a pass and removing the lighthearted or ironic
> comments (and there are quite a few of them).
No, it isn't.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-30 5:25 ` David Kastrup
@ 2008-06-30 7:48 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-30 8:16 ` David Kastrup
2008-06-30 9:49 ` Alan Mackenzie
1 sibling, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2008-06-30 7:48 UTC (permalink / raw
To: David Kastrup; +Cc: rgm, eliz, rms, emacs-devel
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 07:25, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
> Well, those authors are presumably reading the Emacs developer list when
> they are bothered about what happens "downstream" with their
> contribution. So they can speak up for themselves.
>
> There is no need to invent hypothetical people to complicate things.
They have done, at least two of them; if you count me in, that's at
least three. So there's nothing "hypothetical" here. And, perhaps this
escaped you, but I'm not "speaking up" for them, I'm agreeing with
them.
> No, it isn't.
Yes, it is. [Shall we continue...?]
Juanma
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-30 7:48 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2008-06-30 8:16 ` David Kastrup
2008-06-30 8:18 ` Juanma Barranquero
0 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2008-06-30 8:16 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: rgm, eliz, rms, emacs-devel
"Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 07:25, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>> Well, those authors are presumably reading the Emacs developer list when
>> they are bothered about what happens "downstream" with their
>> contribution. So they can speak up for themselves.
>>
>> There is no need to invent hypothetical people to complicate things.
>
> They have done, at least two of them; if you count me in, that's at
> least three.
I have seen no author state "Please don't change UK spellings in my
contributions to US spellings". I have only seen general statements
of the sort "some authors might like...".
If we have authors in here, it would be helpful if they did not hide
between general statements, but explain clearly why they themselves, for
their own contributions, would prefer not to have them changed to make
them consistent with the rest of Emacs.
Maybe I am dense, but all I have seen up to now were _suggestions_ about
what _might_ make people prefer to have their DOC strings stay the way
they are.
The downside is there: it makes it harder to find stuff.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-30 8:16 ` David Kastrup
@ 2008-06-30 8:18 ` Juanma Barranquero
0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2008-06-30 8:18 UTC (permalink / raw
To: David Kastrup; +Cc: rgm, eliz, rms, emacs-devel
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 10:16, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
> Maybe I am dense, but all I have seen up to now were _suggestions_ about
> what _might_ make people prefer to have their DOC strings stay the way
> they are.
Very curious, because in the conversation I was, DOC strings were
entirely left out. It was all about source code comments and ChangeLog
entries.
Juanma
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-30 9:49 ` Alan Mackenzie
@ 2008-06-30 9:42 ` David Kastrup
2008-06-30 10:07 ` Nick Roberts
2008-06-30 12:05 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-06-30 20:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-07-01 7:36 ` Johannes Weiner
2 siblings, 2 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2008-06-30 9:42 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Alan Mackenzie; +Cc: Juanma Barranquero, eliz, emacs-devel, rms, rgm
Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:
> Morning, David and everybody else!
>
> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 07:25:22AM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
>
>> Well, those authors are presumably reading the Emacs developer list
>> when they are bothered about what happens "downstream" with their
>> contribution. So they can speak up for themselves.
>
> So I can. British spellings, etymologically more accurate, refined
> and cultured, are clearly so superior to ignorant and vulgar
> Americanisms, that it vexes me that Emacs has chosen to use the
> latter. I mean, "color" is something you wear round your neck, isn't
> it?
You mean "collar". You should exhibit a better grasp of spelling if you
want to make a convincing point.
Anyway, the point is that Emacs _has_ chosen a language for its
documentation. It would be out of place if I commented my contributions
in German, so why should others document in British? We also have
coding conventions we retain.
> And surely if the Americans had had the moral character to retain
> proper spelling, they wouldn't have brutishly, arrogantly and
> indiscriminately kidnapped several hundred men, detained them
> unlawfully in Cuba for many years and tortured them. Although this is
> intuitively obvious, it's a little difficult to demonstrate
> scientifically. Hey, I can't help the prejudices of my upbringing,
> though I try. Sometimes. ;-)
>
> So, yes, on balance, I would prefer British spellings to be left alone
> in my Changelog entries and comments, but if Greg or anybody else
> wants to "correct" them, it won't really bother me at all. There's
> more pressing things to worry about.
The problem is that ChangeLog entries can become NEWS eventually, and
comments become DOC strings. And all are things people tend to grep
for. And yes, this thread has been about "anybody else" wanting to
correct things, not about rejecting contributions or tying down
resources people want to spend elsewhere.
> In a way, it's a bit like rigorously (no asides here, please!)
> enforcing a particular way of laying out C code; lots of coding shops
> in the proprietary world try (mostly half-heartedly) to do this, and
> most hackers just ignore the silly rules. Following them would wipe
> out useful information about who wrote what.
We have Elisp coding conventions in Emacs, and C coding conventions, and
yes, adhering to them is strongly desired. Nobody complained about that
as far as I remember.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-30 5:25 ` David Kastrup
2008-06-30 7:48 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2008-06-30 9:49 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-06-30 9:42 ` David Kastrup
` (2 more replies)
1 sibling, 3 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Alan Mackenzie @ 2008-06-30 9:49 UTC (permalink / raw
To: David Kastrup; +Cc: Juanma Barranquero, eliz, emacs-devel, rms, rgm
Morning, David and everybody else!
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 07:25:22AM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
> "Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
> > On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 00:05, Richard M Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
> >> Are you accusing me of being inconsistent, then ;-)?
> > Well, now that you mention it...
> >> But here there is no sacrifice. If Glenn wants to spend his time
> >> this way, why argue?
> > Fair enough. My comments are only because I think some of the authors
> > of the entries would want their linguistic flavour preserved.
> Well, those authors are presumably reading the Emacs developer list
> when they are bothered about what happens "downstream" with their
> contribution. So they can speak up for themselves.
So I can. British spellings, etymologically more accurate, refined and
cultured, are clearly so superior to ignorant and vulgar Americanisms,
that it vexes me that Emacs has chosen to use the latter. I mean,
"color" is something you wear round your neck, isn't it? And surely if
the Americans had had the moral character to retain proper spelling, they
wouldn't have brutishly, arrogantly and indiscriminately kidnapped
several hundred men, detained them unlawfully in Cuba for many years and
tortured them. Although this is intuitively obvious, it's a little
difficult to demonstrate scientifically. Hey, I can't help the
prejudices of my upbringing, though I try. Sometimes. ;-)
So, yes, on balance, I would prefer British spellings to be left alone in
my Changelog entries and comments, but if Greg or anybody else wants to
"correct" them, it won't really bother me at all. There's more pressing
things to worry about.
> There is no need to invent hypothetical people to complicate things.
Indeed not, when hypothetical people actually exist and are complicating
things quite enough as it is.
> > It is akin to making a pass and removing the lighthearted or ironic
> > comments (and there are quite a few of them).
> No, it isn't.
I think it is.
In a way, it's a bit like rigorously (no asides here, please!) enforcing
a particular way of laying out C code; lots of coding shops in the
proprietary world try (mostly half-heartedly) to do this, and most
hackers just ignore the silly rules. Following them would wipe out
useful information about who wrote what.
> David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-30 9:42 ` David Kastrup
@ 2008-06-30 10:07 ` Nick Roberts
2008-06-30 12:05 ` Alan Mackenzie
1 sibling, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Nick Roberts @ 2008-06-30 10:07 UTC (permalink / raw
To: David Kastrup; +Cc: emacs-devel
> > So I can. British spellings, etymologically more accurate, refined
> > and cultured, are clearly so superior to ignorant and vulgar
> > Americanisms, that it vexes me that Emacs has chosen to use the
> > latter. I mean, "color" is something you wear round your neck, isn't
> > it?
>
> You mean "collar". You should exhibit a better grasp of spelling if you
> want to make a convincing point.
Lighten up, it's a joke. In UK English red is a "colour", so naturally
one then starts to wonder what "color" means. It made me smile anyway.
> Anyway, the point is that Emacs _has_ chosen a language for its
> documentation. It would be out of place if I commented my contributions
> in German, so why should others document in British?
Because British and American are almost the same language while German is
completely different?
Oops, sorry I seem to be in the wrong mailing list.
Emacs, anyone?
--
Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-30 9:42 ` David Kastrup
2008-06-30 10:07 ` Nick Roberts
@ 2008-06-30 12:05 ` Alan Mackenzie
1 sibling, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Alan Mackenzie @ 2008-06-30 12:05 UTC (permalink / raw
To: David Kastrup; +Cc: Juanma Barranquero, eliz, rms, rgm, emacs-devel
Hi, David and everybody else!
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 11:42:55AM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
> Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:
[ .... ]
> Anyway, the point is that Emacs _has_ chosen a language for its
> documentation. It would be out of place if I commented my
> contributions in German, so why should others document in British? We
> also have coding conventions we retain.
Well, I believe German was considered at one point, but with a right
margin (now) of only 65 in doc strings, that would exclude too many
words for German to be practical.
[ .... ]
> > So, yes, on balance, I would prefer British spellings to be left
> > alone in my Changelog entries and comments, but if Greg or anybody
> > else wants to "correct" them, it won't really bother me at all.
> > There's more pressing things to worry about.
> The problem is that ChangeLog entries can become NEWS eventually, and
> comments become DOC strings. And all are things people tend to grep
> for. And yes, this thread has been about "anybody else" wanting to
> correct things, not about rejecting contributions or tying down
> resources people want to spend elsewhere.
Sorry, just to clarify, I meant that there're more pressing things for
_me_ to worry about than moaning about my comments/ChangeLog entries
being changed. So if somebody does it, I won't moan, I won't even feel
resentful.
> > In a way, it's a bit like rigorously (no asides here, please!)
> > enforcing a particular way of laying out C code; lots of coding shops
> > in the proprietary world try (mostly half-heartedly) to do this, and
> > most hackers just ignore the silly rules. Following them would wipe
> > out useful information about who wrote what.
> We have Elisp coding conventions in Emacs, and C coding conventions, and
> yes, adhering to them is strongly desired. Nobody complained about that
> as far as I remember.
Well, the GNU coding standards, unlike most ones in the "real world", are
sensible, and GNU provides a way of adhering to them without effort (at
least, without effort apart from mine).
> --
> David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-30 13:43 ` Alan Mackenzie
@ 2008-06-30 13:33 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-06-30 13:39 ` David Kastrup
` (2 more replies)
2008-06-30 20:32 ` David De La Harpe Golden
2008-07-01 1:04 ` Kenichi Handa
2 siblings, 3 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman (gmail) @ 2008-06-30 13:33 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Alan Mackenzie
Cc: rgm, Kenichi Handa, Juanma Barranquero, emacs-devel, monnier,
eliz
Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> Hi, Kenichi,
>
> On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 09:16:25PM +0900, Kenichi Handa wrote:
>
>> Anyway, for me (a non native English speeker), the more helpful thing
>> is to standardise which word to use (e.g. remove/delete,
>> replace/substitute, accept/permit/allow, preserve/retain,
>> put/set/store, property/attribute, vector/array, go-to/move-to,
>> cancel/undo, etc.) :-p
>
> NO!! Different words have different meanings. For example, if you
> delete something, it's gone. If you remove something, you can later put
> it back again.
>
> You might substitute a fresh football player for a tired one, but you'd
> replace a broken light bulb (answer, it only takes one Emacs hacker to
> change a light bulb).
>
> And so on.
>
> There a few pairs of words indeed in English in which one means exactly
> the same as the other. It is surely the same in other languages. Let us
> strive, always, to use the most fitting word, and to preserve and retain
> the fine control this gives us over our meanings.
That is nice. For some non native English speakers it would be good to
have a document describing those small differences.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-30 13:33 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
@ 2008-06-30 13:39 ` David Kastrup
2008-06-30 13:59 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-06-30 14:43 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-06-30 18:23 ` Johan Bockgård
2 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2008-06-30 13:39 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Lennart Borgman (gmail)
Cc: rgm, Kenichi Handa, Juanma Barranquero, emacs-devel, monnier,
Alan Mackenzie, eliz
"Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:
> Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>> Hi, Kenichi,
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 09:16:25PM +0900, Kenichi Handa wrote:
>>
>>> Anyway, for me (a non native English speeker), the more helpful thing
>>> is to standardise which word to use (e.g. remove/delete,
>>> replace/substitute, accept/permit/allow, preserve/retain,
>>> put/set/store, property/attribute, vector/array, go-to/move-to,
>>> cancel/undo, etc.) :-p
>>
>> NO!! Different words have different meanings. For example, if you
>> delete something, it's gone. If you remove something, you can later put
>> it back again.
>>
>> You might substitute a fresh football player for a tired one, but you'd
>> replace a broken light bulb (answer, it only takes one Emacs hacker to
>> change a light bulb).
>>
>> And so on.
>>
>> There a few pairs of words indeed in English in which one means exactly
>> the same as the other. It is surely the same in other languages. Let us
>> strive, always, to use the most fitting word, and to preserve and retain
>> the fine control this gives us over our meanings.
>
> That is nice. For some non native English speakers it would be good to
> have a document describing those small differences.
Uh no, it is not nice. The poetry of Emacs is at a different level than
the poetry of drama. The language of documentation should be blunt and
to the point. We don't want to hide differences in the subtlety of
words.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-27 12:16 ` Kenichi Handa
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2008-06-27 13:46 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2008-06-30 13:43 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-06-30 13:33 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
` (2 more replies)
3 siblings, 3 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Alan Mackenzie @ 2008-06-30 13:43 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Kenichi Handa; +Cc: Juanma Barranquero, eliz, emacs-devel, monnier, rgm
Hi, Kenichi,
On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 09:16:25PM +0900, Kenichi Handa wrote:
> Anyway, for me (a non native English speeker), the more helpful thing
> is to standardise which word to use (e.g. remove/delete,
> replace/substitute, accept/permit/allow, preserve/retain,
> put/set/store, property/attribute, vector/array, go-to/move-to,
> cancel/undo, etc.) :-p
NO!! Different words have different meanings. For example, if you
delete something, it's gone. If you remove something, you can later put
it back again.
You might substitute a fresh football player for a tired one, but you'd
replace a broken light bulb (answer, it only takes one Emacs hacker to
change a light bulb).
And so on.
There a few pairs of words indeed in English in which one means exactly
the same as the other. It is surely the same in other languages. Let us
strive, always, to use the most fitting word, and to preserve and retain
the fine control this gives us over our meanings.
> Kenichi Handa
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-30 13:39 ` David Kastrup
@ 2008-06-30 13:59 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman (gmail) @ 2008-06-30 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw
To: David Kastrup
Cc: rgm, Kenichi Handa, Juanma Barranquero, emacs-devel, monnier,
Alan Mackenzie, eliz
David Kastrup wrote:
> "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>>> Hi, Kenichi,
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 09:16:25PM +0900, Kenichi Handa wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anyway, for me (a non native English speeker), the more helpful thing
>>>> is to standardise which word to use (e.g. remove/delete,
>>>> replace/substitute, accept/permit/allow, preserve/retain,
>>>> put/set/store, property/attribute, vector/array, go-to/move-to,
>>>> cancel/undo, etc.) :-p
>>> NO!! Different words have different meanings. For example, if you
>>> delete something, it's gone. If you remove something, you can later put
>>> it back again.
>>>
>>> You might substitute a fresh football player for a tired one, but you'd
>>> replace a broken light bulb (answer, it only takes one Emacs hacker to
>>> change a light bulb).
>>>
>>> And so on.
>>>
>>> There a few pairs of words indeed in English in which one means exactly
>>> the same as the other. It is surely the same in other languages. Let us
>>> strive, always, to use the most fitting word, and to preserve and retain
>>> the fine control this gives us over our meanings.
>> That is nice. For some non native English speakers it would be good to
>> have a document describing those small differences.
>
> Uh no, it is not nice. The poetry of Emacs is at a different level than
> the poetry of drama. The language of documentation should be blunt and
> to the point. We don't want to hide differences in the subtlety of
> words.
Maybe you are right, but I think different words can both hide and point
to the differences. For me personally it would help. I do not think that
logically, it takes too much time except at that point when you have to
be exact.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-30 13:33 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-06-30 13:39 ` David Kastrup
@ 2008-06-30 14:43 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-06-30 18:23 ` Johan Bockgård
2 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Alan Mackenzie @ 2008-06-30 14:43 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Lennart Borgman (gmail)
Cc: rgm, Kenichi Handa, Juanma Barranquero, emacs-devel, monnier,
eliz
Hi, Lennart!
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 03:33:35PM +0200, Lennart Borgman (gmail) wrote:
> Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> >Hi, Kenichi,
> >On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 09:16:25PM +0900, Kenichi Handa wrote:
> >>Anyway, for me (a non native English speeker), the more helpful thing
> >>is to standardise which word to use (e.g. remove/delete,
> >>replace/substitute, accept/permit/allow, preserve/retain,
> >>put/set/store, property/attribute, vector/array, go-to/move-to,
> >>cancel/undo, etc.) :-p
> >NO!! Different words have different meanings. For example, if you
> >delete something, it's gone. If you remove something, you can later
> >put it back again.
> >You might substitute a fresh football player for a tired one, but
> >you'd replace a broken light bulb (answer, it only takes one Emacs
> >hacker to change a light bulb).
> >And so on.
> >There a few pairs of words indeed in English in which one means
> >exactly the same as the other. It is surely the same in other
> >languages. Let us strive, always, to use the most fitting word, and
> >to preserve and retain the fine control this gives us over our
> >meanings.
> That is nice. For some non native English speakers it would be good to
> have a document describing those small differences.
It would be for many native English speakers, too, particularly for
politicians and bureaucrats. Sadly, there isn't one, at least, not a
comprehensive one. If you're interested enough, find a copy of "Fowler's
Modern English Usage", preferably the second or first edition. It's a
classic.
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-29 20:00 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
@ 2008-06-30 14:43 ` Richard M Stallman
0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Richard M Stallman @ 2008-06-30 14:43 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Lennart Borgman (gmail); +Cc: emacs-devel
At least for me I think grammar is much more important than those small
differences we are speaking about here.
You may be right, but instead of arguing which is more important to
fix, how about if you help by fixing the one you think is more
important to fix?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-30 13:33 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-06-30 13:39 ` David Kastrup
2008-06-30 14:43 ` Alan Mackenzie
@ 2008-06-30 18:23 ` Johan Bockgård
2008-06-30 18:40 ` David Kastrup
2 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Johan Bockgård @ 2008-06-30 18:23 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
"Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:
> That is nice. For some non native English speakers it would be good to
> have a document describing those small differences.
I have the Cassell Guide to Related Words (~650 pages).
--
Johan Bockgård
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-30 18:23 ` Johan Bockgård
@ 2008-06-30 18:40 ` David Kastrup
0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2008-06-30 18:40 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
bojohan+news@dd.chalmers.se (Johan Bockgård) writes:
> "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> That is nice. For some non native English speakers it would be good to
>> have a document describing those small differences.
>
> I have the Cassell Guide to Related Words (~650 pages).
Having just googled for the recently late "George Carlin", I read about
his list and standup show of "Seven Dirty Words", later expanded to a
list of over 200. I had a short double take upon reading the above.
The internet equivalent of channel zapping is fraught with dangers.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-30 9:49 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-06-30 9:42 ` David Kastrup
@ 2008-06-30 20:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-07-01 11:06 ` Richard M Stallman
2008-07-01 12:19 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-07-01 7:36 ` Johannes Weiner
2 siblings, 2 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2008-06-30 20:02 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Alan Mackenzie; +Cc: lekktu, emacs-devel, rms, rgm
> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:49:07 +0000
> Cc: Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com>, rgm@gnu.org, eliz@gnu.org,
> rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>
>
> So, yes, on balance, I would prefer British spellings to be left alone in
> my Changelog entries and comments, but if Greg or anybody else wants to
> "correct" them, it won't really bother me at all.
Who is Greg?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-30 13:43 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-06-30 13:33 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
@ 2008-06-30 20:32 ` David De La Harpe Golden
2008-07-01 1:04 ` Kenichi Handa
2 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: David De La Harpe Golden @ 2008-06-30 20:32 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Alan Mackenzie
Cc: rgm, Kenichi Handa, Juanma Barranquero, emacs-devel, monnier,
eliz
Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> There a few pairs of words indeed in English in which one means exactly
> the same as the other.
The real problem with american vs. british english is the words with
the same spelling in both that are likely to be used to mean different
things...
"color" and "colour" both mean the same thing and will usually be
understood on either side of the atlantic. "roundabout", "momentarily",
"liberal", "pound sign" etc. are the tricky ones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_words_having_different_meanings_in_British_and_American_English
Bah. I speak hiberno-english anyway.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-30 13:43 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-06-30 13:33 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-06-30 20:32 ` David De La Harpe Golden
@ 2008-07-01 1:04 ` Kenichi Handa
2 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Kenichi Handa @ 2008-07-01 1:04 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Alan Mackenzie; +Cc: lekktu, eliz, monnier, rgm, emacs-devel
In article <20080630134328.GC2910@muc.de>, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:
> Hi, Kenichi,
> On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 09:16:25PM +0900, Kenichi Handa wrote:
> > Anyway, for me (a non native English speeker), the more helpful thing
> > is to standardise which word to use (e.g. remove/delete,
> > replace/substitute, accept/permit/allow, preserve/retain,
> > put/set/store, property/attribute, vector/array, go-to/move-to,
> > cancel/undo, etc.) :-p
> NO!! Different words have different meanings. For example, if you
> delete something, it's gone. If you remove something, you can later put
> it back again.
It seems that Emacs doesn't use delete and remove in such a
way; deleted text by delete-region can be yanked, and the
docstring of remove-alist starts as:
^^^^^^
Delete an element whose car equals key from the alist bound to symbol.
^^^^^^
> You might substitute a fresh football player for a tired one, but you'd
> replace a broken light bulb (answer, it only takes one Emacs hacker to
> change a light bulb).
The docstring of substitute-key-definition starts as:
^^^^^^^^^^
Replace olddef with newdef for any keys in keymap now defined as olddef.
^^^^^^^
> There a few pairs of words indeed in English in which one means exactly
> the same as the other. It is surely the same in other languages. Let us
> strive, always, to use the most fitting word, and to preserve and retain
> the fine control this gives us over our meanings.
I understand that there are cases that only one of those
paired words are suitable. What helps non-native English
speakers is a guideline of when to use which word. As we
are applying words to programing codes, normal dictionaries
don't help much in such a case (e.g. the above cases).
---
Kenichi Handa
handa@ni.aist.go.jp
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-30 9:49 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-06-30 9:42 ` David Kastrup
2008-06-30 20:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2008-07-01 7:36 ` Johannes Weiner
2008-07-01 12:40 ` Alan Mackenzie
2 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Johannes Weiner @ 2008-07-01 7:36 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Alan Mackenzie; +Cc: rgm, rms, Juanma Barranquero, emacs-devel, eliz
Hi,
Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:
> Morning, David and everybody else!
>
> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 07:25:22AM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
>> "Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> > On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 00:05, Richard M Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>> >> Are you accusing me of being inconsistent, then ;-)?
>
>> > Well, now that you mention it...
>
>> >> But here there is no sacrifice. If Glenn wants to spend his time
>> >> this way, why argue?
>
>> > Fair enough. My comments are only because I think some of the authors
>> > of the entries would want their linguistic flavour preserved.
>
>> Well, those authors are presumably reading the Emacs developer list
>> when they are bothered about what happens "downstream" with their
>> contribution. So they can speak up for themselves.
>
> So I can. British spellings, etymologically more accurate, refined and
> cultured, are clearly so superior to ignorant and vulgar Americanisms,
> that it vexes me that Emacs has chosen to use the latter. I mean,
> "color" is something you wear round your neck, isn't it? And surely if
> the Americans had had the moral character to retain proper spelling, they
> wouldn't have brutishly, arrogantly and indiscriminately kidnapped
> several hundred men, detained them unlawfully in Cuba for many years and
> tortured them. Although this is intuitively obvious, it's a little
> difficult to demonstrate scientifically. Hey, I can't help the
> prejudices of my upbringing, though I try. Sometimes. ;-)
> --
> Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
While we are discussing vulgarism, it is called ,,Nürnberg'' ;)
Hannes
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-30 20:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2008-07-01 11:06 ` Richard M Stallman
2008-07-01 11:12 ` David Kastrup
2008-07-01 12:19 ` Alan Mackenzie
1 sibling, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Richard M Stallman @ 2008-07-01 11:06 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: acm, emacs-devel, rgm, lekktu
> So, yes, on balance, I would prefer British spellings to be left alone in
> my Changelog entries and comments, but if Greg or anybody else wants to
> "correct" them, it won't really bother me at all.
Who is Greg?
Maybe "Greg" is the British spelling of "Glenn" ;-).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-07-01 11:06 ` Richard M Stallman
@ 2008-07-01 11:12 ` David Kastrup
0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2008-07-01 11:12 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
Richard M Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> > So, yes, on balance, I would prefer British spellings to be left alone in
> > my Changelog entries and comments, but if Greg or anybody else wants to
> > "correct" them, it won't really bother me at all.
>
> Who is Greg?
>
> Maybe "Greg" is the British spelling of "Glenn" ;-).
What an eglenniously bad joke.
--
David Kastrup
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-06-30 20:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-07-01 11:06 ` Richard M Stallman
@ 2008-07-01 12:19 ` Alan Mackenzie
1 sibling, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Alan Mackenzie @ 2008-07-01 12:19 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: lekktu, rms, rgm, emacs-devel
Hi, Eli,
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 11:02:21PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:49:07 +0000
> > Cc: Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com>, rgm@gnu.org, eliz@gnu.org,
> > rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> > From: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>
> > So, yes, on balance, I would prefer British spellings to be left alone in
> > my Changelog entries and comments, but if Greg or anybody else wants to
> > "correct" them, it won't really bother me at all.
> Who is Greg?
Er, my sluggish brain's mismemory of Glenn's name.
Sorry, Glenn. No offence was intended.
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-07-01 7:36 ` Johannes Weiner
@ 2008-07-01 12:40 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-07-01 14:10 ` Johannes Weiner
0 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread
From: Alan Mackenzie @ 2008-07-01 12:40 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Johannes Weiner; +Cc: rgm, eliz, emacs-devel, rms, Juanma Barranquero
'n Tag, Johannes!
On Tue, Jul 01, 2008 at 09:36:55AM +0200, Johannes Weiner wrote:
> Hi,
> Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:
> > British spellings, etymologically more accurate, refined and
> > cultured, are clearly so superior to ignorant and vulgar
> > Americanisms, that it vexes me that Emacs has chosen to use the
> > latter. I mean, "color" is something you wear round your neck, isn't
> > it? And surely if the Americans had had the moral character to
> > retain proper spelling, they wouldn't have brutishly, arrogantly and
> > indiscriminately kidnapped several hundred men, detained them
> > unlawfully in Cuba for many years and tortured them. Although this
> > is intuitively obvious, it's a little difficult to demonstrate
> > scientifically. Hey, I can't help the prejudices of my upbringing,
> > though I try. Sometimes. ;-)
> While we are discussing vulgarism, it is called ,,Nürnberg'' ;)
It is, indeed. Trouble is, and I can't be Frank enough here, native
English speakers can't pronounce Nürnberg properly. Even I can't manage
it, though I've lived here for some while. Fürth is even more
troublesome.
Still, it could be worse. I've seen "Nuremburg" in print. Funny,
though, because the castle here is far more prominent than any mountain.
> Hannes
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nürnberg, Franken).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries?
2008-07-01 12:40 ` Alan Mackenzie
@ 2008-07-01 14:10 ` Johannes Weiner
0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread
From: Johannes Weiner @ 2008-07-01 14:10 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Alan Mackenzie; +Cc: rgm, eliz, emacs-devel, rms, Juanma Barranquero
Hi,
Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:
> 'n Tag, Johannes!
>
> On Tue, Jul 01, 2008 at 09:36:55AM +0200, Johannes Weiner wrote:
>> Hi,
>
>> Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:
>
>> > British spellings, etymologically more accurate, refined and
>> > cultured, are clearly so superior to ignorant and vulgar
>> > Americanisms, that it vexes me that Emacs has chosen to use the
>> > latter. I mean, "color" is something you wear round your neck, isn't
>> > it? And surely if the Americans had had the moral character to
>> > retain proper spelling, they wouldn't have brutishly, arrogantly and
>> > indiscriminately kidnapped several hundred men, detained them
>> > unlawfully in Cuba for many years and tortured them. Although this
>> > is intuitively obvious, it's a little difficult to demonstrate
>> > scientifically. Hey, I can't help the prejudices of my upbringing,
>> > though I try. Sometimes. ;-)
>
>> While we are discussing vulgarism, it is called ,,Nürnberg'' ;)
>
> It is, indeed. Trouble is, and I can't be Frank enough here, native
> English speakers can't pronounce Nürnberg properly. Even I can't manage
> it, though I've lived here for some while. Fürth is even more
> troublesome.
Something like `nurn-bairk'? And `furrd' (with a very short ur and with
an `r' that does not sound like a mouth full of chewing gum).
HTH, but I figure people already tried to teach you ;)
> Still, it could be worse. I've seen "Nuremburg" in print. Funny,
> though, because the castle here is far more prominent than any
> mountain.
Ouch! But this is completely due to your pronunciation. There is an
audible difference between `burg' and `berg' (in German) you can even
make out through the worst mobile-phone connection while standing next
to a starting jet engine.
`boork' vs. `bairk' or something.
Hannes
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2008-07-01 14:10 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 71+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
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2008-06-27 9:21 ` Fix UK spelling in comments and ChangeLog entries? Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-27 9:48 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-27 9:50 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-27 10:56 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-27 11:40 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-27 12:01 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-27 13:43 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-27 18:14 ` Glenn Morris
2008-06-27 19:10 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-27 19:28 ` Jason Rumney
2008-06-28 13:20 ` Richard M Stallman
2008-06-28 15:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-28 21:19 ` Jason Rumney
2008-06-28 21:30 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-28 21:47 ` Juri Linkov
2008-06-28 22:45 ` Jason Rumney
2008-06-28 6:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-29 9:52 ` Richard M Stallman
2008-06-29 10:13 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-29 11:06 ` Reiner Steib
2008-06-29 11:57 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-29 18:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-29 19:53 ` Sam Steingold
2008-06-29 20:00 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-06-30 14:43 ` Richard M Stallman
2008-06-29 20:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-29 20:57 ` David Kastrup
2008-06-29 22:05 ` Richard M Stallman
2008-06-29 22:26 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-29 22:29 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-30 5:25 ` David Kastrup
2008-06-30 7:48 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-30 8:16 ` David Kastrup
2008-06-30 8:18 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-30 9:49 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-06-30 9:42 ` David Kastrup
2008-06-30 10:07 ` Nick Roberts
2008-06-30 12:05 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-06-30 20:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-07-01 11:06 ` Richard M Stallman
2008-07-01 11:12 ` David Kastrup
2008-07-01 12:19 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-07-01 7:36 ` Johannes Weiner
2008-07-01 12:40 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-07-01 14:10 ` Johannes Weiner
2008-06-27 9:56 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-06-27 10:05 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-27 10:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-27 10:23 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-27 12:16 ` Kenichi Handa
2008-06-27 12:30 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-27 12:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-27 12:52 ` Kenichi Handa
2008-06-27 16:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-27 16:54 ` Agustin Martin
2008-06-28 2:01 ` Kenichi Handa
2008-06-27 13:46 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-28 1:02 ` Kenichi Handa
2008-06-28 1:07 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-06-28 1:50 ` Kenichi Handa
2008-06-30 13:43 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-06-30 13:33 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-06-30 13:39 ` David Kastrup
2008-06-30 13:59 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-06-30 14:43 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-06-30 18:23 ` Johan Bockgård
2008-06-30 18:40 ` David Kastrup
2008-06-30 20:32 ` David De La Harpe Golden
2008-07-01 1:04 ` Kenichi Handa
2008-06-27 15:38 ` Richard M Stallman
2008-06-27 16:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
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