Encoding for a file containing filenames?

Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Juanma Barranquero]

A few days ago I installed in the trunk a patch for ido.el which
forces the ido history file (an elisp file containing several lists of
filenames and directories) to be saved in a given coding system and
that coding system recorded as a local variable.

At that moment I used

  (or file-name-coding-system
      default-file-name-coding-system)

because it seems logical to save filenames in the current filename
coding system.

However, I'm having second thoughts. Wouldn't be safer to use an
encoding that can save anything, like emacs-mule? Should it depend on
the setting of default-enable-multibyte-characters?

             Juanma

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Stefan Monnier]

> However, I'm having second thoughts. Wouldn't be safer to use an
> encoding that can save anything, like emacs-mule? Should it depend on
> the setting of default-enable-multibyte-characters?

Yes.  I'd recommend utf-8 (good for the future) or emacs-mule (good for the
present).


        Stefan

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Juanma Barranquero]

On 11/8/07, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:

> Yes.

Thanks.

> I'd recommend utf-8 (good for the future) or emacs-mule (good for the
> present).

The unicode branch can read emacs-mule files. And the ido history is
not read by other programs, so external compatibility is not an issue.

             Juanma

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 17:49:11 +0100
> From: "Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com>
> Cc: Emacs Devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> > I'd recommend utf-8 (good for the future) or emacs-mule (good for the
> > present).
> 
> The unicode branch can read emacs-mule files. And the ido history is
> not read by other programs, so external compatibility is not an issue.

It is still better to use UTF-8 because that makes the file readable
by other programs.

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Stefan Monnier]

> It is still better to use UTF-8 because that makes the file readable
> by other programs.

But it will fail in Emacs-22 if the file (which contains file names)
contains chars that Emacs-22 doesn't know how to encode to (and decode
from) utf-8.


        Stefan

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Jason Rumney]

Stefan Monnier wrote:
> But it will fail in Emacs-22 if the file (which contains file names)
> contains chars that Emacs-22 doesn't know how to encode to (and decode
> from) utf-8.
Are there any such chars that are likely to be used in filenames? Or is 
it just the mule specific charsets that Emacs-22 cannot encode as utf-8.

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Kenichi Handa]

In article <f7ccd24b0711080849g4355e7cet1c7c16116528e804@mail.gmail.com>, "Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:

> > I'd recommend utf-8 (good for the future) or emacs-mule (good for the
> > present).

> The unicode branch can read emacs-mule files. And the ido history is
> not read by other programs, so external compatibility is not an issue.

But, unicode branch will be merged into the trunk before the
release based on the trunk code.  So, I think it is better
to start using utf-8 now.

---
Kenichi Handa
handa@ni.aist.go.jp

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Juanma Barranquero]

On 11/9/07, Kenichi Handa <handa@ni.aist.go.jp> wrote:

> But, unicode branch will be merged into the trunk before the
> release based on the trunk code.  So, I think it is better
> to start using utf-8 now.

This is a bug fix; it should go into the EMACS_22_BASE branch too. So
the question is, are the chars that Emacs 22.2 does not know how to
encode in utf-8 relevant, or, as Jason said, are they unlikely to
appear in filenames?

             Juanma

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Kenichi Handa]

In article <f7ccd24b0711081650o17bf1cf9o28b1913065e7708f@mail.gmail.com>, "Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:

> On 11/9/07, Kenichi Handa <handa@ni.aist.go.jp> wrote:
> > But, unicode branch will be merged into the trunk before the
> > release based on the trunk code.  So, I think it is better
> > to start using utf-8 now.

> This is a bug fix; it should go into the EMACS_22_BASE branch too.

Ah.

> So the question is, are the chars that Emacs 22.2 does not
> know how to encode in utf-8 relevant, or, as Jason said,
> are they unlikely to appear in filenames?

I think it's very unlike that people use such a character
that is unencodable by Emacs22's utf-8 in a filename.

---
Kenichi Handa
handa@ni.aist.go.jp

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Stefan Monnier]

>> But it will fail in Emacs-22 if the file (which contains file names)
>> contains chars that Emacs-22 doesn't know how to encode to (and decode
>> from) utf-8.
> Are there any such chars that are likely to be used in filenames? Or is it
> just the mule specific charsets that Emacs-22 cannot encode as utf-8.

It's actually a bit worse: it shouldn't just be encodable with utf-8,
but it should also be the case that encoding to utf-8 and back should
return the exact same string (since these are filenames and will be
compared with simple byte-comparison in the kernel).


        Stefan

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,  Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com>,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 23:01:31 -0500
> 
> It's actually a bit worse: it shouldn't just be encodable with utf-8,
> but it should also be the case that encoding to utf-8 and back should
> return the exact same string (since these are filenames and will be
> compared with simple byte-comparison in the kernel).

What kernel are we talking about here?  The Windows filesystem, for
example, does not compare bytes, but rather 16-bit words (UTF-16).
And Linux filesystems use UTF-8 for file names anyway, right?

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Kenichi Handa]

In article <jwvprykm5ky.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>>> But it will fail in Emacs-22 if the file (which contains file names)
>>> contains chars that Emacs-22 doesn't know how to encode to (and decode
>>> from) utf-8.
> > Are there any such chars that are likely to be used in filenames? Or is it
> > just the mule specific charsets that Emacs-22 cannot encode as utf-8.

> It's actually a bit worse: it shouldn't just be encodable with utf-8,
> but it should also be the case that encoding to utf-8 and back should
> return the exact same string (since these are filenames and will be
> compared with simple byte-comparison in the kernel).

I think the important thing is to assure the round-trip of
decode&encode (not encode&decode).  And utf-8 should
preserve exact byte sequence on decode&encode.

---
Kenichi Handa
handa@ni.aist.go.jp

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Jan Djärv]

Eli Zaretskii skrev:
>> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
>> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,  Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com>,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 23:01:31 -0500
>>
>> It's actually a bit worse: it shouldn't just be encodable with utf-8,
>> but it should also be the case that encoding to utf-8 and back should
>> return the exact same string (since these are filenames and will be
>> compared with simple byte-comparison in the kernel).
> 
> What kernel are we talking about here?  The Windows filesystem, for
> example, does not compare bytes, but rather 16-bit words (UTF-16).
> And Linux filesystems use UTF-8 for file names anyway, right?

Linux filesystems (and others) don't interpret the file names.  They are just 
sequences of bytes.  It is the user space tools like ls, emacs and others that 
  put meaning to these bytes.

	Jan D.

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Andreas Schwab]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> And Linux filesystems use UTF-8 for file names anyway, right?

Linux filesystems do not use any encoding, they use raw bytes.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@suse.de>
> Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>, lekktu@gmail.com,
> 	jasonr@f2s.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:07:23 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > And Linux filesystems use UTF-8 for file names anyway, right?
> 
> Linux filesystems do not use any encoding, they use raw bytes.

Yes, but what kind of bytes would those be on a typical box that uses
non-ASCII characters in file names?  I know it can be _anything_, but
I think typically these characters will be encoded in UTF-8.

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Jan Djärv]

Eli Zaretskii skrev:
>> From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@suse.de>
>> Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>, lekktu@gmail.com,
>> 	jasonr@f2s.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:07:23 +0100
>>
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>>
>>> And Linux filesystems use UTF-8 for file names anyway, right?
>> Linux filesystems do not use any encoding, they use raw bytes.
> 
> Yes, but what kind of bytes would those be on a typical box that uses
> non-ASCII characters in file names?  I know it can be _anything_, but
> I think typically these characters will be encoded in UTF-8.
> 

The trend for Gnome and KDE and other desktop environments is to use UTF-8 
(just about everywhere, not just file names), so you can say UTF-8 is most likely.

	Jan D.

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Kenichi Handa]

In article <usl3fprcf.fsf@gnu.org>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Yes, but what kind of bytes would those be on a typical box that uses
> non-ASCII characters in file names?  I know it can be _anything_, but
> I think typically these characters will be encoded in UTF-8.

I think many CJK users still uses one of EUC encoding.  For
Taiwanese users, Big5 is still popular.

---
Kenichi Handa
handa@ni.aist.go.jp

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Andreas Schwab]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Yes, but what kind of bytes would those be on a typical box that uses
> non-ASCII characters in file names?  I know it can be _anything_, but
> I think typically these characters will be encoded in UTF-8.

This is completely controlled by the locale.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@suse.de>
> Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, lekktu@gmail.com, jasonr@f2s.com,
> 	emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 13:54:18 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > Yes, but what kind of bytes would those be on a typical box that uses
> > non-ASCII characters in file names?  I know it can be _anything_, but
> > I think typically these characters will be encoded in UTF-8.
> 
> This is completely controlled by the locale.

Sure, I know that.  That's not what I was asking.

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Stefan Monnier]

>>>> But it will fail in Emacs-22 if the file (which contains file names)
>>>> contains chars that Emacs-22 doesn't know how to encode to (and decode
>>>> from) utf-8.
>> > Are there any such chars that are likely to be used in filenames? Or is it
>> > just the mule specific charsets that Emacs-22 cannot encode as utf-8.

>> It's actually a bit worse: it shouldn't just be encodable with utf-8,
>> but it should also be the case that encoding to utf-8 and back should
>> return the exact same string (since these are filenames and will be
>> compared with simple byte-comparison in the kernel).

> I think the important thing is to assure the round-trip of
> decode&encode (not encode&decode).

Are you sure?  The situation is that we have a file name as an Emacs
string (i.e. decoded say from "locale" coding system) and we need to
store it into a file to load it back in a later Emacs invocation (at
which point we may use it to access the file, using hopefully the same
"locale" coding system).

So what needs to be byte-preserving is really:

  locale-decode -> utf8-encode -> utf8-decode -> locale-encode

So as Eli points out, if locale is utf-8 there shouldn't be any problem.
In any case, I'd go with utf-8.


        Stefan

Re: Encoding for a file containing filenames?

[Kenichi Handa]

In article <jwvk5orgzk2.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> > I think the important thing is to assure the round-trip of
> > decode&encode (not encode&decode).

> Are you sure?  The situation is that we have a file name as an Emacs
> string (i.e. decoded say from "locale" coding system) and we need to
> store it into a file to load it back in a later Emacs invocation (at
> which point we may use it to access the file, using hopefully the same
> "locale" coding system).

> So what needs to be byte-preserving is really:

>   locale-decode -> utf8-encode -> utf8-decode -> locale-encode

Ah, I misunderstood the situation, sorry.  You are right.

---
Kenichi Handa
handa@ni.aist.go.jp