Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Mathias Dahl]

Before we started to add bindings for tumme in dired, the way to set
them up was to use the command `tumme-setup-dired-keybindings'. Most
bindings are now added to dired but a few are still missing. I might
discuss that in another thread, what I wanted to ask about now is the
extra "Tumme" menu that this command adds.

I think the Tumme menu added by `tumme-setup-dired-keybindings' is
very good, especially for beginners. The menu provides an easy way to
access commands before learning the key bindings and, maybe most
important, before learning that the command is there at all.

In the two tumme modes, `tumme-thumbnail-mode' (on in the thumbnail
buffer) and `tumme-display-image-mode' (on in the image display
buffer), there is also a Tumme buffer, but I don't think that anyone
has a problem with that, as it is just on in those modes/buffers.

So, what can be done with this? I don't think anyone would like that
fat Tumme menu each time they enter dired. Would a sub menu to Dired
work? Too much or OK? If OK, should it be on always (probably)?

Any opinions on this subject?

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Juri Linkov]

> So, what can be done with this? I don't think anyone would like that
> fat Tumme menu each time they enter dired. Would a sub menu to Dired
> work? Too much or OK? If OK, should it be on always (probably)?
>
> Any opinions on this subject?

Currently there are too many redundant keybindings in tumme.  They all do
almost the same thing with small nuances.

A large number of very similar keybindings is confusing.  It would be good
to have one keybinding that does the most expected thing and changes its
behavior depending on context and on a prefix key.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Mathias Dahl]

> > Any opinions on this subject?
>
> Currently there are too many redundant keybindings in tumme.  They all do
> almost the same thing with small nuances.

I agree. Some of those are leftovers from commans that I once thought
was very useful but which maybe was not so useful after all.

> A large number of very similar keybindings is confusing.  It would be good
> to have one keybinding that does the most expected thing and changes its
> behavior depending on context and on a prefix key.

I am sure it can be optimized to be less confusing and easier to use.

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Richard M. Stallman]

    A large number of very similar keybindings is confusing.  It would be good
    to have one keybinding that does the most expected thing and changes its
    behavior depending on context and on a prefix key.

That is absolutely right.  Thanks for pointing out that this
principle applies here.

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Richard M. Stallman]

There is no room for an additional menu bar menu in Dired mode
on a text terminal.  The menu bar is nearly full already.

Putting it in as a submenu of some existing Dired menu would be ok.
Perhaps "Immediate".

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Mathias Dahl]

> Putting it in as a submenu of some existing Dired menu would be ok.
> Perhaps "Immediate".

I'll experiment with that and see how it looks.

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Mathias Dahl]

> There is no room for an additional menu bar menu in Dired mode
> on a text terminal.  The menu bar is nearly full already.
>
> Putting it in as a submenu of some existing Dired menu would be ok.
> Perhaps "Immediate".

This been done in CVS now. I added the sub menu "Thumbnails" under
"Immediate" and placed what I think are the most useful commands
there. I might add a few more command after people have checked out
the new menu.

Some things to think about:

- Is the sub menu name "Thumbnails" OK?
- Are the names of the sub menu items OK?
- Does the code look OK?

I deliberately did not add any tooltips, as per the recent discussions.

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Nick Roberts]

 > > Putting it in as a submenu of some existing Dired menu would be ok.
 > > Perhaps "Immediate".
 > 
 > This been done in CVS now. I added the sub menu "Thumbnails" under
 > "Immediate" and placed what I think are the most useful commands
 > there. I might add a few more command after people have checked out
 > the new menu.

You need to add a ChangeLog entry.

It didn't work for me.  You might like to check that my change does the
right thing.

-- 
Nick                                           http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Mathias Dahl]

> You need to add a ChangeLog entry.

Oh? I did M-x cvs-examine and then in the buffer it opens typed C on
the tumme line, which gives me a new buffer where I have to add a
comment. But things start to come back to me now, I remember that the
last time I did this I always had to type in a comment about the
changes in two places. I will check my old e-mails where I have this
process documented. Thanks for reminding me!

> It didn't work for me.  You might like to check that my change does the
> right thing.

What did not work? The new menu?

RE: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Drew Adams]

    - Is the sub menu name "Thumbnails" OK?

How about "Thumbnail Images"?

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Mathias Dahl]

> How about "Thumbnail Images"?

Changed.

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Richard Stallman]

Please get rid of "to marked files" or "from marked files"
on all the menu items.  Those words are wasteful.
However, every menu item that reads more input (such as confirmation,
which all Dired commands that operate on marked files ask for)
should have "..." at the end.

Every word in menu item name should be capitalized.  Always.

I suggest replacing "Tag" with "Image Tag".  Without that,
it is not clear what this is about.

+     '(menu-item "Find and mark files with a certain tag"

That is painfully long.  Use "Mark Images From Tags".

    -     '(menu-item "Display image in external viewer"

That is painfully long.  Use "Display Image Externally".


Meanwhile, please give each menu item a help-echo string which
explains better.  We decided that we do want them, except for items
that lead to submenus.

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Nick Roberts]

 > Please get rid of "to marked files" or "from marked files"
 > on all the menu items.  Those words are wasteful.
 > However, every menu item that reads more input (such as confirmation,
 > which all Dired commands that operate on marked files ask for)
 > should have "..." at the end.

I can't find the start of this thread but "Immediate" generally (but not always)
does something to the file on the line point is.


 > Every word in menu item name should be capitalized.  Always.
 > 
 > I suggest replacing "Tag" with "Image Tag".  Without that,
 > it is not clear what this is about.
 > 
 > +     '(menu-item "Find and mark files with a certain tag"

Shouldn't this item be under "Regexp"?

 >...
 >     -     '(menu-item "Display image in external viewer"
 > 
 > That is painfully long.  Use "Display Image Externally".

And this one (and others) under "Operate"?

The other items under "Operate" are bound to upper case letters.

How about (I = image):

tumme-tag-remove       C-t r  ->   I r
tumme-tag-files        C-t t  ->   I t
tumme-display-thumbs   C-t d  ->   I d

Assuming tumme-tag-remove deletes tags, tumme-tag-delete sounds better.

tumme-tag-files works on just one file. It might be clearer to call
it tumme-tag-add (and bind it to "I a")


-- 
Nick                                           http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Nick Roberts]

 >  >     -     '(menu-item "Display image in external viewer"
 >  > 
 >  > That is painfully long.  Use "Display Image Externally".
 > 
 > And this one (and others) under "Operate"?

Sorry, not this one, but the ones about marked files.


-- 
Nick                                           http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Mathias Dahl]

> I can't find the start of this thread but "Immediate" generally (but not always)
> does something to the file on the line point is.

It started a while ago when I asked where to put the old Tumme menu
items that was previously added by `tumme-setup-dired-bindings' (this
function still exists but should probably be removed later).

Richard replied:

> There is no room for an additional menu bar menu in Dired mode
> on a text terminal.  The menu bar is nearly full already.

> Putting it in as a submenu of some existing Dired menu would be ok.
> Perhaps "Immediate".

So I created the sub menu there.

> Shouldn't this item be under "Regexp"?
> ...
> And this one (and others) under "Operate"?

Probably, in one sense. But do we really want to mess with these
"standard" or "old" Dired menus? If there were a "Dired tools" menu,
tumme would fit well as a sub menu under that one.

> The other items under "Operate" are bound to upper case letters.
>
> How about (I = image):
>
> tumme-tag-remove       C-t r  ->   I r
> tumme-tag-files        C-t t  ->   I t
> tumme-display-thumbs   C-t d  ->   I d

`I' is already bound to `dired-info' in Dired.

> Assuming tumme-tag-remove deletes tags, tumme-tag-delete sounds better.

I trust your judgement on this one (my English skills are not good enough).

> tumme-tag-files works on just one file.

No, it works on any number of marked files.

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[David Kastrup]

"Mathias Dahl" <mathias.dahl@gmail.com> writes:

> Richard replied:
>
>> There is no room for an additional menu bar menu in Dired mode
>> on a text terminal.  The menu bar is nearly full already.
>
>> Putting it in as a submenu of some existing Dired menu would be ok.
>> Perhaps "Immediate".
>
> So I created the sub menu there.
>
>> Shouldn't this item be under "Regexp"?
>> ...
>> And this one (and others) under "Operate"?
>
> Probably, in one sense. But do we really want to mess with these
> "standard" or "old" Dired menus? If there were a "Dired tools" menu,
> tumme would fit well as a sub menu under that one.

In my opinion, stuff should be there where the user would expect it
according to its functionality, not according to package boundaries.

>> Assuming tumme-tag-remove deletes tags, tumme-tag-delete sounds better.
>
> I trust your judgement on this one (my English skills are not good
> enough).

I am opposed.  "tumme-tag-delete" sounds like it would delete tagged
files, not like it would remove tags from files.  "delete" sounds more
appropriate with more physical entities than just tags.  You can,
after "deleting" a tag, put it right on afterwards again.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Nick Roberts]

 > >> Assuming tumme-tag-remove deletes tags, tumme-tag-delete sounds better.
 > >
 > > I trust your judgement on this one (my English skills are not good
 > > enough).
 > 
 > I am opposed.  "tumme-tag-delete" sounds like it would delete tagged
 > files, not like it would remove tags from files.  "delete" sounds more
 > appropriate with more physical entities than just tags.  You can,
 > after "deleting" a tag, put it right on afterwards again.

If it deleted files, I guess it would be called tumme-file-delete.  After you
remove a file with 'rm', do you feel you can get it back again?

Delete is certainly not more appropriate with more physical entities.  When
I move house, the removal men take my furniture, not the "deletion men".

-- 
Nick                                           http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[David Kastrup]

Nick Roberts <nickrob@snap.net.nz> writes:

>  > >> Assuming tumme-tag-remove deletes tags, tumme-tag-delete sounds better.
>  > >
>  > > I trust your judgement on this one (my English skills are not good
>  > > enough).
>  > 
>  > I am opposed.  "tumme-tag-delete" sounds like it would delete tagged
>  > files, not like it would remove tags from files.  "delete" sounds more
>  > appropriate with more physical entities than just tags.  You can,
>  > after "deleting" a tag, put it right on afterwards again.
>
> If it deleted files, I guess it would be called tumme-file-delete.  After you
> remove a file with 'rm', do you feel you can get it back again?
>
> Delete is certainly not more appropriate with more physical
> entities.  When I move house, the removal men take my furniture, not
> the "deletion men".

That is because the physical entity remains and does not get
destroyed.  And tags don't get destroyed, you can put them right on
afterwards.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Nick Roberts]

 > > Delete is certainly not more appropriate with more physical
 > > entities.  When I move house, the removal men take my furniture, not
 > > the "deletion men".
 > 
 > That is because the physical entity remains and does not get
 > destroyed.  And tags don't get destroyed, you can put them right on
 > afterwards.

You've changed your reason.  Maybe I'm missing something and the tags are
stored somewhere and brought back later, but I imagine they're deleted
and then recreated, if necessary.

David, I'm sure your German is infinitely better than mine, but I'm not
going to take an English lesson from you.


-- 
Nick                                           http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Mathias Dahl]

> Maybe I'm missing something and the tags are stored somewhere
> and brought back later, but I imagine they're deleted and then recreated,
> if necessary.

Technically, what happens is this:

This is a hypothetical line from tumme database file:

file-name;nature;flower

Adding tag "yellow":

file-name;nature;flower;yellow

Removing/deleting "flower":

file-name;nature;yellow

Did I just remove the tag from this file or did I delete it? I guess
you could compare it to properties if you want. Are those deleted or
removed?

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[David Kastrup]

Nick Roberts <nickrob@snap.net.nz> writes:

>  > > Delete is certainly not more appropriate with more physical
>  > > entities.  When I move house, the removal men take my furniture, not
>  > > the "deletion men".
>  > 
>  > That is because the physical entity remains and does not get
>  > destroyed.  And tags don't get destroyed, you can put them right on
>  > afterwards.
>
> You've changed your reason.  Maybe I'm missing something and the tags are
> stored somewhere and brought back later, but I imagine they're deleted
> and then recreated, if necessary.
>
> David, I'm sure your German is infinitely better than mine, but I'm
> not going to take an English lesson from you.

Take it from Webster's if you prefer.

Main Entry: de·lete
Pronunciation: di-'lEt, dE-
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): de·let·ed; de·let·ing
Etymology: Latin deletus, past participle of delEre to wipe out, destroy
: to eliminate especially by blotting out, cutting out, or erasing 	

Main Entry: 1re·move
Pronunciation: ri-'müv
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): re·moved; re·mov·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French removoir, from Latin removEre, from re- + movEre to move
transitive senses
1 a : to change the location, position, station, or residence of <remove soldiers to the front> b : to transfer (a legal proceeding) from one court to another
2 : to move by lifting, pushing aside, or taking away or off <remove your hat>
3 : to dismiss from office
4 : to get rid of : ELIMINATE <remove a tumor surgically>

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Richard Stallman]

    In my opinion, stuff should be there where the user would expect it
    according to its functionality, not according to package boundaries.

I think you are right.  Mathias, could you try out putting each of these
commands into the existing Dired menu where it would fit?

Please try that, and see how it comes out.

If you put them all at the bottom of their menu, and separate them
with a horizontal line, that could help make things clear.

    >> Assuming tumme-tag-remove deletes tags, tumme-tag-delete sounds better.
    >
    > I trust your judgement on this one (my English skills are not good
    > enough).

    I am opposed.  "tumme-tag-delete" sounds like it would delete tagged
    files, not like it would remove tags from files.

I agree.  But I think `tumme-delete-tags' makes it clear.

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Mathias Dahl]

> I think you are right.  Mathias, could you try out putting each of these
> commands into the existing Dired menu where it would fit?
>
> Please try that, and see how it comes out.
>
> If you put them all at the bottom of their menu, and separate them
> with a horizontal line, that could help make things clear.

OK, I will try and see how that looks.

I assume that when you suggest a separator (which I think is quite
good), that you think the user will notice that this is something
"special" compared to the "oldies" we have in the menu, right?

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Richard Stallman]

    I assume that when you suggest a separator (which I think is quite
    good), that you think the user will notice that this is something
    "special" compared to the "oldies" we have in the menu, right?

Yes,  And recognize that they all are part of a single feature.

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Mathias Dahl]

> I think you are right.  Mathias, could you try out putting each of these
> commands into the existing Dired menu where it would fit?

Done.

> Please try that, and see how it comes out.

I think it looks good. I tried to understand the logic behind the
placement of the command under each menu and tried to find the best
spot for each tumme command.

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Mathias Dahl]

>     I am opposed.  "tumme-tag-delete" sounds like it would delete tagged
>     files, not like it would remove tags from files.
>
> I agree.  But I think `tumme-delete-tags' makes it clear.

The new name is `tumme-delete-tag'. It only deletes one tag at a time.
The old binding, C-t r (r for remove) is still there though. C-t d is
taken already by `tumme-display-thumbs'.

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Nick Roberts]

 > > The other items under "Operate" are bound to upper case letters.
 > >
 > > How about (I = image):
 > >
 > > tumme-tag-remove       C-t r  ->   I r
 > > tumme-tag-files        C-t t  ->   I t
 > > tumme-display-thumbs   C-t d  ->   I d
 > 
 > `I' is already bound to `dired-info' in Dired.

I see.  I don't use dired-x.  Well maybe another letter then, assuming dired-x
hasn't used the rest of the alphabet.

 >...

 > > tumme-tag-files works on just one file.

 > No, it works on any number of marked files.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  Calling it tumme-tag-files makes it sound like it
is for more than one file.  Using tumme-tag-delete (or tumme-tag-remove)
and tumme-tag-add explains their relationship (assuming they are opposites).

-- 
Nick                                           http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Richard Stallman]

    I see.  I don't use dired-x.  Well maybe another letter then, assuming dired-x
    hasn't used the rest of the alphabet.

You don't have to worry about dired-x; it isn't an official part of
Dired.  People maintain that if they are interested.

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Mathias Dahl]

>    I see.  I don't use dired-x.  Well maybe another letter then, assuming dired-x
>    hasn't used the rest of the alphabet.
>
> You don't have to worry about dired-x; it isn't an official part of
> Dired.  People maintain that if they are interested.

Was the above a vote for using "I d" instead of "C-t d" etc? I would
like to keep my C-t <char> bindings, but that is, of course, because I
am used to them... The number of keypresses are the same (Shift + i
and then d vs Ctrl + t and then d), so "I d" etc would of course work
too.

Otoh, if people use dired-x, it will break the thumbnail bindings. Do
we want to mess with that, even if it is not an oficial part of Dired?

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Richard Stallman]

    > You don't have to worry about dired-x; it isn't an official part of
    > Dired.  People maintain that if they are interested.

    Was the above a vote for using "I d" instead of "C-t d" etc? I would
    like to keep my C-t <char> bindings,

Not in particular.  I'm just saying that dired-x is not a major factor
for any decision about Dired.  You can pay attention to Dired-x if you
want.

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Mathias Dahl]

> Please get rid of "to marked files" or "from marked files"
> on all the menu items.  Those words are wasteful.

Done.

> However, every menu item that reads more input (such as confirmation,
> which all Dired commands that operate on marked files ask for)
> should have "..." at the end.

Done.

> Every word in menu item name should be capitalized.  Always.

Even words like "in", "of" and "at"? I noticed some other menu items
where those words were not capitalized, and there are also "normal"
words that are not capitalized.

> I suggest replacing "Tag" with "Image Tag".  Without that,
> it is not clear what this is about.

Done.

> +     '(menu-item "Find and mark files with a certain tag"
>
> That is painfully long.  Use "Mark Images From Tags".

I changed it to Mark From Image Tags.

> That is painfully long.  Use "Display Image Externally".

Done.

> Meanwhile, please give each menu item a help-echo string which
> explains better.  We decided that we do want them, except for items
> that lead to submenus.

Oh? Then I misunderstood the outcome of that discussion. I will add
help-echo strings.

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Richard Stallman]

    > Every word in menu item name should be capitalized.  Always.

    Even words like "in", "of" and "at"? I noticed some other menu items
    where those words were not capitalized, and there are also "normal"
    words that are not capitalized.

You're right, we have not capitalized prepositions and articles.
However, we usually avoid them in menu items.

What other words do you see which are not capitalized?  That could be
an error.

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Mathias Dahl]

> You're right, we have not capitalized prepositions and articles.
> However, we usually avoid them in menu items.

OK.

> What other words do you see which are not capitalized?  That could be
> an error.

Actually I only found one :), it just happened to be just below where
I first added some tumme commands. That, together with the lower case
articles and prepositions, made me draw false conclusions.

I changed the one that was wrong.

Re: Tumme menu in Dired, what to do about it?

[Richard Stallman]

    Actually I only found one :), it just happened to be just below where
    I first added some tumme commands. That, together with the lower case
    articles and prepositions, made me draw false conclusions.

    I changed the one that was wrong.

Thanks.