From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: JD Smith Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Moving packages out of core to ELPA Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 09:40:19 -0500 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.300.61.1.2\)) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A6A834F4-9F30-41C8-99D7-A495963FDE50" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8212"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: emacs-devel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Feb 17 15:41:44 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rbLst-0001zM-KB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 17 Feb 2024 15:41:43 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbLrp-0005Ew-Gp; Sat, 17 Feb 2024 09:40:37 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbLrn-0005EY-Sm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Feb 2024 09:40:35 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-qv1-xf2b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2b]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbLrl-0003HG-Jz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Feb 2024 09:40:35 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-qv1-xf2b.google.com with SMTP id 6a1803df08f44-68f429f55b7so4801166d6.1 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2024 06:40:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1708180831; x=1708785631; darn=gnu.org; h=to:date:message-id:subject:mime-version:from:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=YL7x40C4xJe6JJrwLcEKAresL++0j6CzQEQEjqEZ9S4=; b=K/CT9zhxWp7yz9TssF8yLm9NIf/Fbd1Q5Yw4yzy8+5t3xkpjS8WHVHVtjIx6JfdE0I wuR88lRz17EzAkbZdvUOgbd/9uxNyYfxxbgHeDS1Wzw7cye5bxUgeTU4wbn+tkmGa9cP 8yiJpv1gqsBqCgW0l9G8YMVQk9GhIS9mzrr8vWYxToM/3A+EVXpF0nfVOlY8Pk2RoMvS riMbjkjMaBXsEG5QNzUxjrXYa35xy2Rq177j7Hp+GdQuC9D9OxNp9KyRMw/VJbNE49do 7lsKrn7dHdceCUYhlhmdabbmq6Zdi5rnw+KvBels51W0Zftfe5OYwQ8HN0JN4GaWUjHP kDSA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1708180831; x=1708785631; h=to:date:message-id:subject:mime-version:from:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=YL7x40C4xJe6JJrwLcEKAresL++0j6CzQEQEjqEZ9S4=; b=ZaC6WJ5MsMt36ZArENE/qJtKsyig/KSxJylhHyPSPXwvLAwmgk39WSQvjxyUZXIK0T 18l1RoRm7NrOs5/fB7ONToK7rn/iPnArAfEuoA/ePb/PvMEdwwVnGk3nO6BIFzr0+uqW ACTgC6rl+/cZLlELJORs/firYHW2r5rlwkhEK6hl2wpxvXF8xeJKALofxnlRdrYpOprV aG5ACXWrcmxIyIA6bJfNFjQhiLoUQSahwIGCMg05aezyX3dAuQ8T2zdu5dUdtGOJFwGD Gx8FScTiRIUZeZLf988wnS6G5wZUKhQH+zaK8QNPHmQrw4r09cojc6IuwTingC0eT/a8 3fzQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzSZAgCKNScxGnQLTyv3RQ0lQmx4rmIbm79FJhqcrUyYVYzxT2m UdlrxbIRUuZ3kKv/lm+iza+Nxwqsn46x8t4u/HaWZ+XgcbIw5UYZ1QgFQxsi X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHC6bzeoU8lQUwJZNIYgNQzTZfrw+Hc56ZsOvW/I9e1pWnm1BwOqABaH+wBYpYYpfKZOmuyMg== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:de10:0:b0:68f:3dce:7b99 with SMTP id t16-20020a0cde10000000b0068f3dce7b99mr3473104qvk.3.1708180831279; Sat, 17 Feb 2024 06:40:31 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from smtpclient.apple (cm-24-53-187-34.buckeyecom.net. [24.53.187.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p4-20020a0cfd84000000b0068f54ed22b2sm182423qvr.0.2024.02.17.06.40.30 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 17 Feb 2024 06:40:30 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.300.61.1.2) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2b; envelope-from=jdtsmith@gmail.com; helo=mail-qv1-xf2b.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:316263 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail=_A6A834F4-9F30-41C8-99D7-A495963FDE50 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii There was a recent discussion about which lisp/progmodes packages belong = in core. A sentiment was expressed that useful languages with = non-negligible user bases should probably go in, and others should be in = ELPA. I want to bring up a related point: it should be possible to retire = packages from core, once their relevance drops below a critical = threshold [1].=20 I am the former maintainer of the now mostly defunct IDLWAVE mode = (lisp/progmodes/idl*.el). IDLWAVE was put in core about 20 years ago, = long before ELPA existed, by my predecessor Carsten Dominik (of org-mode = fame). I'd advocate moving IDLWAVE to ELPA, for the following reasons: The proprietary IDL = is a language = in rapid decline. In my field (astrophysics), its use is now relegated = to older professionals who have not switched to Python (but most of whom = wish they had the time to do so). =20 IDL's holding company has changed approximately 5 times in the last 10 = years, such that the link to its website on Wikipedia isn't even = correct. None of the free IDL alternatives have really caught on. IDL's costs = and licensing restrictions have gotten more onerous over the years.=20 IDL is also the "interface description language", confusing users of = that unrelated system. IDL's file extension ".pro" is quite common, and in use for several = other file types, including Qt's UI build system = as well as = Yarn2/Prolog (which org babel plugin ob-prolog = supports). Some of the best features in IDLWAVE (e.g. direct documentation linking) = required maintenance support from IDL's owners, support which hasn't = fully existed for almost a decade. The version in core has diverged from the latest = (from 7 years ago). Judging by my email traffic on the topic, there are very few users of = IDLWAVE remaining. Even I touch it only a few times a year. No one has = stepped up to maintain it in the 7 years since I stepped aside. IDL is = still a powerful language and IDLWAVE itself has a great number of = features I sorely miss in other emacs programming modes. It deserves = support in Emacs. Just not, IMO, in core. [1] Such a threshold may be hard to define, but here is one idea: if the = number of users who activate a mode on accident = is greater than the number who actively seek to do so, it = may be time to retire a mode. My experience indicates IDLWAVE has = likely passed this threshold.= --Apple-Mail=_A6A834F4-9F30-41C8-99D7-A495963FDE50 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

There was a recent discussion = about which lisp/progmodes packages belong in core.  A sentiment = was expressed that useful languages with non-negligible user bases = should probably go in, and others should be in = ELPA.

I want to bring up a related point: it = should be possible to retire packages from core, once their relevance = drops below a critical threshold [1]. 

I = am the former maintainer of the now mostly defunct IDLWAVE mode = (lisp/progmodes/idl*.el).  IDLWAVE was put in core about 20 years = ago, long before ELPA existed, by my predecessor Carsten Dominik (of = org-mode fame).  I'd advocate moving IDLWAVE to ELPA, for the = following reasons:

  • The proprietary IDL&= nbsp;is a language in rapid decline.  In my field (astrophysics), = its use is now relegated to older professionals who have not switched to = Python (but most of whom wish they had the time to do so). =  
  • IDL's holding company has changed approximately 5 times = in the last 10 years, such that the link to its website on Wikipedia = isn't even correct.
  • None of the free IDL alternatives have = really caught on.  IDL's costs and licensing restrictions have = gotten more onerous over the years. 
  • IDL is also the = "interface description language", confusing users of that unrelated = system.
  • IDL's file extension ".pro" is quite common, and in use = for several other file types, including Qt's UI build = system as well as Yarn2/Prolog (which org babel plugin ob-prolog supports).
  • Some of the best features in IDLWAVE (e.g. direct documentation = linking) required maintenance support from IDL's owners, support which = hasn't fully existed for almost a decade.
  • The version in core = has diverged from the latest (from 7 = years ago).

Judging by my email = traffic on the topic, there are very few users of IDLWAVE remaining. =  Even I touch it only a few times a year.  No one has stepped = up to maintain it in the 7 years since I stepped aside.  IDL is = still a powerful language and IDLWAVE itself has a great number of = features I sorely miss in other emacs programming modes.  It = deserves support in Emacs.  Just not, IMO, in = core.

[1] Such a threshold may be hard to = define, but here is one idea: if the number of users who activate a = mode on accident is greater than the number who = actively seek to do so, it may be time to retire a mode.  My = experience indicates IDLWAVE has likely passed this = threshold.
= --Apple-Mail=_A6A834F4-9F30-41C8-99D7-A495963FDE50--