(emacs)Antinews

(emacs)Antinews

[Luc Teirlinck]

What is the meaning of the following paragraph in `(emacs)Antinews'?
In as far as I know, Emacs does still not (by default) respond to the
described clicks in an xterm.  Was this paragraph added in the short
period that xterm-mouse-mode was enabled by default?  I propose to
remove the paragraph.

   * On an xterm, Emacs provides a more convincing simulation of a
     text terminal by not responding to mouse-clicks on the mode-line,
     header-line, or display margin.

Sincerely,

Luc.

(emacs)Antinews

[Nick Roberts]

 > What is the meaning of the following paragraph in `(emacs)Antinews'?
 > In as far as I know, Emacs does still not (by default) respond to the
 > described clicks in an xterm.  Was this paragraph added in the short
 > period that xterm-mouse-mode was enabled by default?

Yes, I think so.

 >                                                     I propose to
 > remove the paragraph.
 > 
 >    * On an xterm, Emacs provides a more convincing simulation of a
 >      text terminal by not responding to mouse-clicks on the mode-line,
 >      header-line, or display margin.

You pushed to disable this feature, now you're trying to remove references to
it.  There seems little point in adding features if its hard for users to find
out about them.  How about:

    * On an xterm, Emacs provides a more convincing simulation of a text
      terminal by being unable to respond to mouse-clicks on the mode-line,
      header-line, or display margin.

Nick

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Luc Teirlinck]

Nick Roberts wrote:

   You pushed to disable this feature, now you're trying to remove
   references to it.

There was no reference to Xterm Mouse mode in anti.texi; anti.texi
just gave the impression to describe the default behavior.

       * On an xterm, Emacs provides a more convincing simulation of a text
	 terminal by being unable to respond to mouse-clicks on the mode-line,
	 header-line, or display margin.

Still same problems: no reference to Xterm Mouse mode and still seems
to describe default behavior.

Some other stuff in anti.texi seems out of date too.  I propose the
following changes to anti.texi and I can install them, if desired.

===File ~/anti.texi-diff====================================
*** anti.texi	30 Oct 2005 08:25:39 -0600	1.32
--- anti.texi	24 Jan 2006 20:14:51 -0600	
***************
*** 34,42 ****
  onto an Emacs window, nothing will happen.
  
  @item
! On an xterm, Emacs provides a more convincing simulation of a text
! terminal by not responding to mouse-clicks on the mode-line,
! header-line, or display margin.
  
  @item
  For simplicity, windows always have fringes.  We wouldn't want to
--- 34,40 ----
  onto an Emacs window, nothing will happen.
  
  @item
! The minor mode Xterm Mouse mode is no longer available.
  
  @item
  For simplicity, windows always have fringes.  We wouldn't want to
***************
*** 88,95 ****
  the @code{setenv} command does not expand @samp{$} at all.
  
  @item
! Emacs will not query you if a command accumulates too much undo
! information.  If Emacs runs out of memory as a result, it will handle
  this by crashing.
  
  @item
--- 86,93 ----
  the @code{setenv} command does not expand @samp{$} at all.
  
  @item
! If a single command accumulates too much undo information, Emacs never
! discards it.  If Emacs runs out of memory as a result, it will handle
  this by crashing.
  
  @item
***************
*** 131,139 ****
  equivalent to typing them once.  @kbd{M-h} ignores numeric arguments.
  
  @item
! If you want to repeat a jump to a previous mark, you should supply the
! prefix argument explicitly.  So, instead of typing @kbd{C-u C-SPC
! C-SPC C-SPC}, type @kbd{C-u C-SPC C-u C-SPC C-u C-SPC}.
  
  @item
  @kbd{C-@key{SPC} C-@key{SPC}} has no special meaning--it just sets the
--- 129,135 ----
  equivalent to typing them once.  @kbd{M-h} ignores numeric arguments.
  
  @item
! The user option @code{set-mark-command-repeat-pop} has been removed.
  
  @item
  @kbd{C-@key{SPC} C-@key{SPC}} has no special meaning--it just sets the
***************
*** 261,267 ****
  The Kmacro package has been replaced with a simple and elegant
  keyboard macro system.  Use @kbd{C-x (} to start a new keyboard macro,
  @kbd{C-x )} to end the macro, and @kbd{C-x e} to execute the last
! macro.
  
  @item
  The Calc, CUA, GDB-UI, Ibuffer, Ido, Password, Printing, Reveal,
--- 257,264 ----
  The Kmacro package has been replaced with a simple and elegant
  keyboard macro system.  Use @kbd{C-x (} to start a new keyboard macro,
  @kbd{C-x )} to end the macro, and @kbd{C-x e} to execute the last
! macro.  Use @kbd{M-x name-last-kbd-macro} to name the most recently
! defined macro.
  
  @item
  The Calc, CUA, GDB-UI, Ibuffer, Ido, Password, Printing, Reveal,
============================================================

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Nick Roberts]

 >        * On an xterm, Emacs provides a more convincing simulation of a text
 > 	 terminal by being unable to respond to mouse-clicks on the mode-line,
 > 	 header-line, or display margin.
 > 
 > Still same problems: no reference to Xterm Mouse mode and still seems
 > to describe default behavior.

I disagree, to me "unable" suggests "cannot be configured".

 > Some other stuff in anti.texi seems out of date too.  I propose the
 > following changes to anti.texi and I can install them, if desired.
 ...
 > ! The minor mode Xterm Mouse mode is no longer available.

xterm-mouse-mode is not new to Emacs 22, its just that when enabled, mouse
clicks didn't used to work in the mode-line, header-line, or display margin.

Nick

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Luc Teirlinck]

Nick Roberts wrote:

   xterm-mouse-mode is not new to Emacs 22, its just that when enabled, mouse
   clicks didn't used to work in the mode-line, header-line, or display margin.

OK, so what about:

@item
Enabling Xterm Mouse mode no longer makes Emacs respond to mouse
clicks on the mode line, header line or display margin, when run in an
xterm.

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:19:50 -0600 (CST)
> From: Luc Teirlinck <teirllm@dms.auburn.edu>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
>   @item
> ! On an xterm, Emacs provides a more convincing simulation of a text
> ! terminal by not responding to mouse-clicks on the mode-line,
> ! header-line, or display margin.
>   
>   @item
>   For simplicity, windows always have fringes.  We wouldn't want to
> --- 34,40 ----
>   onto an Emacs window, nothing will happen.
>   
>   @item
> ! The minor mode Xterm Mouse mode is no longer available.

Antinews is supposed to be funny and humorous, not dead serious like
NEWS and other documentation.  This and other changes you suggest
remove almost every trace of humor from the original entries.

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Kim F. Storm]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>>   @item
>> ! On an xterm, Emacs provides a more convincing simulation of a text
>> ! terminal by not responding to mouse-clicks on the mode-line,
>> ! header-line, or display margin.

> Antinews is supposed to be funny and humorous, not dead serious like
> NEWS and other documentation.  This and other changes you suggest
> remove almost every trace of humor from the original entries.

How about:

On an xterm, even if you enable XTerm Mouse Mode, Emacs provides a
more convincing simulation of a text terminal by not responding to
mouse-clicks on the mode-line, header-line, or display margin.

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: Luc Teirlinck <teirllm@dms.auburn.edu>,  nickrob@snap.net.nz,
> 	  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm)
> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:54:24 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >>   @item
> >> ! On an xterm, Emacs provides a more convincing simulation of a text
> >> ! terminal by not responding to mouse-clicks on the mode-line,
> >> ! header-line, or display margin.
> 
> > Antinews is supposed to be funny and humorous, not dead serious like
> > NEWS and other documentation.  This and other changes you suggest
> > remove almost every trace of humor from the original entries.
> 
> How about:
> 
> On an xterm, even if you enable XTerm Mouse Mode, Emacs provides a
> more convincing simulation of a text terminal by not responding to
> mouse-clicks on the mode-line, header-line, or display margin.

Much better, IMHO.  (Did we have XTerm Mouse Mode before Emacs 22?)

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Andreas Schwab]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Much better, IMHO.  (Did we have XTerm Mouse Mode before Emacs 22?)

revision 1.1
date: 1995-10-09 18:08:20 +0100;  author: rms;  state: Exp;
Initial revision

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Luc Teirlinck]

Kim Storm wrote:

   On an xterm, even if you enable XTerm Mouse Mode, Emacs provides a
   more convincing simulation of a text terminal by not responding to
   mouse-clicks on the mode-line, header-line, or display margin.

I have installed this with minor changes (I lower cased "mode" in
"Xterm Mouse mode" and used "mode line" instead of "mode-line", since
these seem more standard), but I also installed the rest of my
changes, since humor is not the _only_, or not even the primary purpose
of the antinews.   Its primary purpose is to provide accurate and useful
info about differences with earlier Emacs versions.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Andreas Schwab]

Luc Teirlinck <teirllm@dms.auburn.edu> writes:

> Its primary purpose is to provide accurate and useful info about
> differences with earlier Emacs versions.

That's what NEWS is about.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Luc Teirlinck]

Andreas Schwab wrote:

   Luc Teirlinck <teirllm@dms.auburn.edu> writes:

   > Its primary purpose is to provide accurate and useful info about
   > differences with earlier Emacs versions.

   That's what NEWS is about.

   Andreas.

The purpose of NEWS is different: it tells a user who starts out using
a new Emacs version what is new in that version.  It also aims to be
rather comprehensive (it is huge).

As I understand it, the purpose of antinews is to point out to a user
of the present version what the main difficulties could be if he has
to use an older version.  (_Having_ to use an older version is very
common for several reasons: you might not be using your own computer
and the Emacs version on that computer may not be the latest version,
or you might have to use some package that does not work with the
latest version, because of backward incompatible changes).

For instance, the current Elisp manual says about naming a keyboard macro:

  If you wish to save a keyboard macro for later use, you can give it a
  name using `C-x C-k n' (`kmacro-name-last-macro').

It is impossible to figure out from NEWS that you have to do
`M-x name-last-kbd-macro' in 21.4 and earlier, because 
`C- h n C-s name-last' fails.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 18:14:50 -0600 (CST)
> From: Luc Teirlinck <teirllm@dms.auburn.edu>
> CC: eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, nickrob@snap.net.nz, storm@cua.dk
> 
> For instance, the current Elisp manual says about naming a keyboard macro:
> 
>   If you wish to save a keyboard macro for later use, you can give it a
>   name using `C-x C-k n' (`kmacro-name-last-macro').
> 
> It is impossible to figure out from NEWS that you have to do
> `M-x name-last-kbd-macro' in 21.4 and earlier, because 
> `C- h n C-s name-last' fails.

Then perhaps NEWS needs to be improved about this specific change,
that's all.  But it says nothing about the purpose of Antinews.

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Miles Bader]

Luc Teirlinck <teirllm@dms.auburn.edu> writes:
>  Its primary purpose is to provide accurate and useful
> info about differences with earlier Emacs versions.

Have you ever actually read the antinews?

-miles
-- 
"I distrust a research person who is always obviously busy on a task."
   --Robert Frosch, VP, GM Research

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:38:14 -0600 (CST)
> From: Luc Teirlinck <teirllm@dms.auburn.edu>
> CC: eliz@gnu.org, nickrob@snap.net.nz, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> I also installed the rest of my changes, since humor is not the
> _only_, or not even the primary purpose of the antinews.   Its
> primary purpose is to provide accurate and useful info about
> differences with earlier Emacs versions.

Oh, come on!  Antinews begins with this:

    For those users who live backwards in time, here is information about
    downgrading to Emacs version 21.4.

Now, if this doesn't tell that the _only_ purpose of the chapter is
humor, then I don't know what humor is.

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Chong Yidong]

>> I also installed the rest of my changes, since humor is not the
>> _only_, or not even the primary purpose of the antinews.   Its
>> primary purpose is to provide accurate and useful info about
>> differences with earlier Emacs versions.
>
> Oh, come on!  Antinews begins with this:
>
>     For those users who live backwards in time, here is information about
>     downgrading to Emacs version 21.4.

It may be that Luc is living backwards in time.

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Richard M. Stallman]

	For those users who live backwards in time, here is information about
	downgrading to Emacs version 21.4.

    Now, if this doesn't tell that the _only_ purpose of the chapter is
    humor, then I don't know what humor is.

It is Ha Ha Only Serious.

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Richard M. Stallman]

    changes, since humor is not the _only_, or not even the primary purpose
    of the antinews.   Its primary purpose is to provide accurate and useful
    info about differences with earlier Emacs versions.

Pretty much.  More precisely, it is meant to indicate how to use
the manual for the previous Emacs version.

However, we try to make it humorous too, and usually that does not in
any way conflict with the primary purpose.  So let's try not to lose
any humor as we correct the details.

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Richard M. Stallman]

    On an xterm, even if you enable XTerm Mouse Mode, Emacs provides a
    more convincing simulation of a text terminal by not responding to
    mouse-clicks on the mode-line, header-line, or display margin.

That is good.

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Richard M. Stallman]

These changes are good, apart from the Xterm one, which may not be
entirely correct.

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Luc Teirlinck]

The info in NEWS is also outdated.  I propose the following patch,
which I can install if desired.

===File ~/NEWS-diff=========================================
*** NEWS	22 Jan 2006 17:20:24 -0600	1.1307
--- NEWS	24 Jan 2006 20:27:07 -0600	
***************
*** 1460,1468 ****
  
  ** Xterm support:
  
! ---
! *** Emacs now responds to mouse-clicks on the mode-line, header-line and
! display margin, when run in an xterm.
  
  ---
  *** Improved key bindings support when running in an xterm.
--- 1460,1469 ----
  
  ** Xterm support:
  
! +++
! *** If you enable the new minor mode Xterm Mouse mode, Emacs will
! respond to mouse-clicks on the mode-line, header-line and display
! margin, when run in an xterm.
  
  ---
  *** Improved key bindings support when running in an xterm.
============================================================

Re: (emacs)Antinews

[Nick Roberts]

 > ! +++
 > ! *** If you enable the new minor mode Xterm Mouse mode, Emacs will
 > ! respond to mouse-clicks on the mode-line, header-line and display
 > ! margin, when run in an xterm.

 ! +++
 ! *** If you enable Xterm Mouse mode, Emacs will respond to mouse-clicks
 ! on the mode-line, header-line and display margin, when run in an xterm.

Nick