Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Luc Teirlinck]

To some people, for instance me, having to watch a blinking cursor
produces real discomfort.  I do not know what percentage of people
react the same way to it, but I know from other people's reactions
that I am not the only person like that.  Anybody just starting to
learn Emacs should be able to disable this torture instrument without
any need to read prior documentation and do so very quickly.  (I can
not stand the blinking cursor for more than a couple of seconds.)  I
believe that the first place a desperate novice is likely to try is
the Options menu.  Hence, I believe that it needs to be on the Options
menu and be very visible there, i.e. on top.  The patch below does that.

The patch contains a minor, unrelated, doc fix to `menu-bar-make-mm-toggle'.

I can install if desired.

===File ~/menu-bar.el-diff==================================
*** menu-bar.el	16 Feb 2005 07:59:49 -0600	1.252
--- menu-bar.el	28 Feb 2005 17:29:25 -0600	
***************
*** 590,596 ****
  (defmacro menu-bar-make-mm-toggle (fname doc help &optional props)
    "Make a menu-item for a global minor mode toggle.
  FNAME is the minor mode's name (variable and function).
! DOC is the text to use the menu entry.
  HELP is the text to use for the tooltip.
  PROPS are additional properties."
    `'(menu-item ,doc ,fname
--- 590,596 ----
  (defmacro menu-bar-make-mm-toggle (fname doc help &optional props)
    "Make a menu-item for a global minor mode toggle.
  FNAME is the minor mode's name (variable and function).
! DOC is the text to use for the menu entry.
  HELP is the text to use for the tooltip.
  PROPS are additional properties."
    `'(menu-item ,doc ,fname
***************
*** 637,643 ****
      ;; These are set with menu-bar-make-mm-toggle, which does not
      ;; put on a customized-value property.
      (dolist (elt '(line-number-mode column-number-mode cua-mode show-paren-mode
! 		   transient-mark-mode global-font-lock-mode))
        (and (customize-mark-to-save elt)
  	   (setq need-save t)))
      ;; These are set with `customize-set-variable'.
--- 637,644 ----
      ;; These are set with menu-bar-make-mm-toggle, which does not
      ;; put on a customized-value property.
      (dolist (elt '(line-number-mode column-number-mode cua-mode show-paren-mode
! 		   transient-mark-mode global-font-lock-mode
! 		   blink-cursor-mode))
        (and (customize-mark-to-save elt)
  	   (setq need-save t)))
      ;; These are set with `customize-set-variable'.
***************
*** 1037,1042 ****
--- 1038,1050 ----
  			   "Syntax Highlighting"
  			   "Colorize text based on language syntax (Global Font Lock mode)"))
  
+ (define-key menu-bar-options-menu [cursor-separator]
+   '("--"))
+ (define-key menu-bar-options-menu [blink-cursor-mode]
+   (menu-bar-make-mm-toggle blink-cursor-mode
+ 			   "Blinking Cursor"
+ 			   "Whether the cursor blinks (Blink Cursor mode)"))
+ 
  \f
  ;; The "Tools" menu items
  
============================================================

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Kim F. Storm]

Luc Teirlinck <teirllm@dms.auburn.edu> writes:

> (I can
> not stand the blinking cursor for more than a couple of seconds.)  

If you type fast enough, it doesn't blink :-)

>                                                                    I
> believe that the first place a desperate novice is likely to try is
> the Options menu.  

That's a good place to look.

>                    Hence, I believe that it needs to be on the Options
> menu and be very visible there, i.e. on top.  The patch below does that.

IMO, that is the wrong place.

It belongs on the Options=>Show/hide submenu.

The cursor doesn't blink while a menu is active, so the user can
browse for the option without being annoyed :-)

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Robert J. Chassell]

   To some people, for instance me, having to watch a blinking cursor
   produces real discomfort.  

Same here.  That is why I never post reports with

    emacs -q --no-site-file

but always with

    emacs -q --no-site-file --eval '(blink-cursor-mode 0)'
or
    emacs -Q

Moreover, not everyone will know to put `(blink-cursor-mode 0)' in
their init file.

Your change to the Options menu is fine.  

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                         
    bob@rattlesnake.com                         GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Chong Yidong]

>    To some people, for instance me, having to watch a blinking cursor
>    produces real discomfort.
>
> Same here.  That is why I never post reports with
>
>     emacs -q --no-site-file

Why not set blink-cursor-mode to nil by default?

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[David Kastrup]

"Chong Yidong" <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:

>>    To some people, for instance me, having to watch a blinking cursor
>>    produces real discomfort.
>>
>> Same here.  That is why I never post reports with
>>
>>     emacs -q --no-site-file
>
> Why not set blink-cursor-mode to nil by default?

Same as all defaults: since a majority of people appear to prefer the
current setting.  Emacs supports multiple frames and windows and
interactive searches.  The blinking cursor makes it easy to recognize
point as it jumps around in editing operations.

I think that the blinking pretty much is required for locating things.
Whether it needs to be a full square or whether something like a
vertical line (such as other text editors tend to use) would suffice,
is a different question.

Personally, I find the cursor quite ok the current way.  This would
probably be something for which a poll would be required.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Luc Teirlinck]

David Kastrup wrote:

   I think that the blinking pretty much is required for locating things.

I have never had any problem locating a non-blinking default box
cursor instantaneously.  I guess that it could be exactly the same
neuro-physiological difference that makes this easy for me and hard
for you (maybe for most people) that makes a blinking cursor so very
uncomfortable to me and completely harmless to you.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[David Kastrup]

Luc Teirlinck <teirllm@dms.auburn.edu> writes:

> To some people, for instance me, having to watch a blinking cursor
> produces real discomfort.  I do not know what percentage of people
> react the same way to it, but I know from other people's reactions
> that I am not the only person like that.  Anybody just starting to
> learn Emacs should be able to disable this torture instrument
> without any need to read prior documentation and do so very quickly.
> (I can not stand the blinking cursor for more than a couple of
> seconds.)  I believe that the first place a desperate novice is
> likely to try is the Options menu.  Hence, I believe that it needs
> to be on the Options menu and be very visible there, i.e. on top.

I think that the average urgency is not such that it would not be
better placed in the Hide/Show menu.  That would be the logical place
for it, I'd think.

Or we make a general "Accessibility" menu which would then also
include black-on-white displays (which are a frequent need).  But
wouldn't a documented command line option be more appropriate for
things which people report they can't stand for even seconds?  They
could then read the man-page before even starting Emacs.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Luc Teirlinck]

   >                    Hence, I believe that it needs to be on the Options
   > menu and be very visible there, i.e. on top.  The patch below does that.

   IMO, that is the wrong place.

   It belongs on the Options=>Show/hide submenu.

I do not understand why that would be logical.  We are not talking
about _hiding_ the cursor.  I personally would not think of searching
in that submenu, except with a "One never knows, I have seen people
put things in strange places before" type attitude.

I believe that `blink-cursor-mode' is definitely important enough to
be at top level.  _Every_ option is supposed to be completely
irrelevant to the majority of people.  If not, the default is wrong.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[David Kastrup]

Luc Teirlinck <teirllm@dms.auburn.edu> writes:

>    >                    Hence, I believe that it needs to be on the Options
>    > menu and be very visible there, i.e. on top.  The patch below does that.
>
>    IMO, that is the wrong place.
>
>    It belongs on the Options=>Show/hide submenu.
>
> I do not understand why that would be logical.

Because it is a visual feature that you want to see or not.

> We are not talking about _hiding_ the cursor.  I personally would
> not think of searching in that submenu, except with a "One never
> knows, I have seen people put things in strange places before" type
> attitude.

Then perhaps we should rename the menu.  It definitely does not "hide"
things, since a scrollbar or toolbar or speedbar or similar does not
get hidden, but removed or switched off.

Maybe it should be called "Appearance" or something.

> I believe that `blink-cursor-mode' is definitely important enough to
> be at top level.

I don't believe so.  We won't get further by restating our beliefs.
This is not something that can easily be "solved", we can at best make
a poll.  A poll among users would be most relevant, and if we don't
have that, a poll on developers.

Personally, if settings render Emacs unusable (like you claim) for
some audience, then these settings must be changeable from the command
line with the man page saying so.  That is the only safe way people
will have a chance to arrive at a working Emacs without suffering a
heart attack or epilepsy or blindness or whatever beforehand.

> _Every_ option is supposed to be completely irrelevant to the
> majority of people.  If not, the default is wrong.

So you say that a car need only accommodate right turns, or the
default street corners are wrong?

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Luc Teirlinck]

David Kastrup wrote:

   Because it is a visual feature that you want to see or not.

So are "Syntax Highlighting", "Active Region Highlighting" and "Paren
Match Highlighting".

   Then perhaps we should rename the menu.  It definitely does not "hide"
   things, since a scrollbar or toolbar or speedbar or similar does not
   get hidden, but removed or switched off.

After you remove them, you can not see them anymore, which people may
think of as "hidden", even though this is technically speaking not the
way things are implemented.  On the other hand, you definitely can
still see the cursor, whether it blinks or not.

Nitpickingly correct would be:

Show/ Do Not Show,

but "Hidden" is the name most other applications seem to use, even
though they too just "remove" stuff instead of "hiding" it.

   Personally, if settings render Emacs unusable (like you claim) for
   some audience, then these settings must be changeable from the command
   line with the man page saying so.

Having to study a man page before even being able to casually and
comfortably try out an application does usually not encourage people
to try out that application.

   That is the only safe way people will have a chance to arrive at a
   working Emacs without suffering a heart attack or epilepsy or
   blindness or whatever beforehand.

I said that it produced discomfort.  I did not claim that it was a
health hazard.
   
   This is not something that can easily be "solved", we can at best make
   a poll.  A poll among users would be most relevant, and if we don't
   have that, a poll on developers.

This is unbelievable.  We are talking about adding an option to a
menu, not about changing a default.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Jason Rumney]

Luc Teirlinck <teirllm@dms.auburn.edu> writes:

> This is unbelievable.  We are talking about adding an option to a
> menu, not about changing a default.

If we added everyone's pet option to the Options menu, we'd end up
with hundreds of options that would just be confusing to users.

I don't see any need to do anything here. New users will be used to
blinking cursors from the other apps they use, only a few experienced
Emacs users who use nothing else will be offended by the blinking, and
they can easily figure out how to disable it.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Luc Teirlinck]

Jason Rumney wrote:
   
   I don't see any need to do anything here. New users will be used to
   blinking cursors from the other apps they use, only a few experienced
   Emacs users who use nothing else will be offended by the blinking, and
   they can easily figure out how to disable it.

This has absolutely _nothing_ to do with being an experienced Emacs
user.  It has to do with being able to stand a blinking cursor.  Next,
you are probably going to claim that only experienced Emacs users have
abnormal color vision and more stuff like that.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Robert J. Chassell]

Jason Rumney wrote, 

   If we added everyone's pet option to the Options menu, ...

It is not so simple.  It is misleading to think of this as an `any
person pet option'.  It is not like whether someone prefers to use
`dodgerblue3' or `dodgerblue4' as the background for his or her
`w3-style-face-00001'.

For bug reports, I specifically start Emacs without any options,
except that I cannot stand blinking cursors so I use "-Q" or "-q
--no-site-file --eval '(blink-cursor-mode 0)'".

Moreover, I find it very easy to locate a standard box cursor that
does not blink, whether in Emacs or in other programs.  Evidentally,
there are some people who cannot find such things, just as there are
people who avoid Web pages with <blink> text.  That is why the option
exists.

    New users will be used to blinking cursors from the other apps
    they use ...

We did not have blinking cursors when I was a new user and I do not
see them when I try out new programs.  For example, I just ran
`camorama' and it has a solid cursor.  Indeed, I have never seen a
blinking cursor on this X Windows display other than in Emacs.  (Which
is good.  Obviously, Luc and I are not the only people who dislike
blinking cursors.)

The option should return to what it was,     (blink-cursor-mode 0)
but if not that, then the blinking cursor should be easy to turn off
when you do not have a .emacs file and have not yet learned how to
write one.

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                         
    bob@rattlesnake.com                         GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Jason Rumney]

"Robert J. Chassell" <bob@rattlesnake.com> writes:

> For example, I just ran `camorama' and it has a solid cursor.

I don't see how a video capture program could be considered a model
for how a text editor should work. Try gedit or kate or something.

> The option should return to what it was,     (blink-cursor-mode 0)

We made the decision to make blinking the default long ago, and wasted
lots of time discussing it then. We don't need to spend more time
discussing it further now.

> but if not that, then the blinking cursor should be easy to turn off
> when you do not have a .emacs file and have not yet learned how to
> write one.

I would not object to putting it into the Show/Hide submenu (renamed
if there is general agreement on that) along with fringes and other
new features that people love to hate, but the top level of the
Options menu already has too many options in it.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Robert J. Chassell]

Jason Rumney <jasonr@gnu.org> wrote

    I don't see how a video capture program could be considered a
    model for how a text editor should work. 

Emacs is much more than a text editor.  It is an integrated
environment, one of four kinds of user interface that are in common
use.  

It is wrong to measure a subset of Emacs against the full expression
of a smaller program.  (My use of a video capture program was to stand
in as an example of a program in another kind of user interface but
not an xterm, which is well known.  In none of my X interfaces, either
as this user or as another, looking at twelve screens, does the cursor
blink.)

I know Emacs' history, how it evolved out of TECO, and that RMS
metaphorically extended the meaning of `edit' to mean `copy files' or
`delete files'.  RMS views everything informational as bits to be
changed.

But Emacs' history and Richard's expansion of the language are
misleading to many of us.  Like Raman's audio interface, a command
line interface, or a graphic user interface, Emacs provides an
integrating service.

Put another way, a shell is an integrator.  You can run programs, such
as ls or grep, that can be piped.

Similarly, Emacs is an integrator.  It pulls pulls together many
libraries, including an editor.  

It is true that many people who use the shell do not see it as an
integrator with programs being `filters'.  Indeed, you can see this in
the expansion of VI over the last couple of decades.  VI has come to
take on more and more of the shell integrating capabilities.

The same has happened with Emacs, but rather than run away from the
notion of filters in a command line, humans have run towards the
notion of editing in an environment that encourages all kinds of
changes.  They have come closer to the view that all information
consists of bits that may be changed.

For example, rather than view changing file ownership as different
from changing a word in a line of text, the Emacs' notion is that a
file's ownership is a feature to be edited.  From the point of view of
some programmers, the acts are technically different.  But in Emacs
they have been integrated under one human notion.

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                         
    bob@rattlesnake.com                         GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:32:58 +0000 (UTC)
> From: "Robert J. Chassell" <bob@rattlesnake.com>
> 
> Jason Rumney <jasonr@gnu.org> wrote
> 
>     I don't see how a video capture program could be considered a
>     model for how a text editor should work. 
> 
> Emacs is much more than a text editor.  It is an integrated
> environment

That's true, but whatever Emacs feature you use, you mostly deal with
text, be it a program source, an email message, a directory listing,
or a C++ class tree.  So I think Jason's is a perfectly valid
argument.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[David Kastrup]

Jason Rumney <jasonr@gnu.org> writes:

> Luc Teirlinck <teirllm@dms.auburn.edu> writes:
>
>> This is unbelievable.  We are talking about adding an option to a
>> menu, not about changing a default.
>
> If we added everyone's pet option to the Options menu, we'd end up
> with hundreds of options that would just be confusing to users.
>
> I don't see any need to do anything here. New users will be used to
> blinking cursors from the other apps they use,

There is no other application I know that has a blinking block cursor.
xterm has a static block cursor, and practically all other editing
applications have a blinking vertical line.

> only a few experienced Emacs users who use nothing else will be
> offended by the blinking, and they can easily figure out how to
> disable it.

I think it belongs in the same category as scrollbars and such and
should sit in one menu with them.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Luc Teirlinck]

David Kastrup wrote:

   "Hide/Show" is something more appropriate for things like outline
   mode, I'd say.  "Appearance" would be a reasonably good name, and the
   cursor type belongs in there.

A problem is that the Show/Hide menu currently contains 8 options all
of which _really_ Show/Hide something where "Hide" has to be taken in
the sense most other applications use that word, even though it is
strictly speaking not 100% accurate.  All of them are the following form:

Tool-bar

which does not make any sense without the Show/Hide in front of it.
Thus if you rename Show/Hide to Appearance  all eight would have to be
renamed to:

Show/Hide Tool-bar

or something similar if you object against "Hide".  (I personally
believe that people understand what is meant with "Hide".)
blink-cursor-mode would be the only other one among the nine.

I still do not understand why blink-cursor-mode is less important than
any of the twelve options that are currently at top level, some of
which seem to _really_ be technical details for advanced users, who
probably do not use the menu bar anyway.  For instance, "Use Directory
Name in Buffer Names", which, like many of the other twelve, is
downright confusing, because it seems to automatically apply to all
file visiting buffers.  If showing directory names in duplicate buffer
names (instead of a number) is something that is not just desirable
for a minority of users, make it the default.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[David Kastrup]

Luc Teirlinck <teirllm@dms.auburn.edu> writes:

> David Kastrup wrote:
>
>    "Hide/Show" is something more appropriate for things like outline
>    mode, I'd say.  "Appearance" would be a reasonably good name, and the
>    cursor type belongs in there.
>
> A problem is that the Show/Hide menu currently contains 8 options all
> of which _really_ Show/Hide something where "Hide" has to be taken in
> the sense most other applications use that word, even though it is
> strictly speaking not 100% accurate.  All of them are the following form:
>
> Tool-bar
>
> which does not make any sense without the Show/Hide in front of it.

A check-marked "Tool-bar" for an appearing toolbar in an "Appearance"
menu does not sound too absurd to me.

Whereas a checkmarked "Tool-bar" in a "Show/Hide" menu means that the
Tool-bar is shown or hidden.  Which makes decidedly less sense.  Of
course it is either of the two.

Call it nitpicking, but I don't see how the descriptive quality would
suffer under that change.

> I still do not understand why blink-cursor-mode is less important
> than any of the twelve options that are currently at top level, some
> of which seem to _really_ be technical details for advanced users,
> who probably do not use the menu bar anyway.  For instance, "Use
> Directory Name in Buffer Names", which, like many of the other
> twelve, is downright confusing, because it seems to automatically
> apply to all file visiting buffers.

If the current menus are confusing, the solution is not to add more
confusing settings, but to fix the old ones.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Jason Rumney <jasonr@gnu.org>
> Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:47:52 +0000
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> If we added everyone's pet option to the Options menu, we'd end up
> with hundreds of options that would just be confusing to users.

100% agreement.

> I don't see any need to do anything here.

Seconded.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Luc Teirlinck]

Jason Rumney wrote:

   New users will be used to blinking cursors from the other apps they
   use, only a few experienced Emacs users who use nothing else will
   be offended by the blinking, and they can easily figure out how to
   disable it.

Look, I feel like I have to react to this.  Your quote clearly seems
to clearly suggest that I am just "offended" by the blinking cursor
for no other reason than that I am a dogmatic purist old-fashioned
Emacs user who uses nothing else.  I clearly said in previous postings
that the blinking cursor produced discomfort to me because of
neuro-physiological differences with what presumably is the majority
of people.  Suggesting that this is untrue and that I am instead
ideologically motivated is an attack on my personal moral integrity.
It implies that I am a liar, dishonest and untrustworthy.

People can disagree with me, but somehow I would have hoped that such
disagreement would not cause people to attack me personally and
question my moral integrity.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Jason Rumney]

Luc Teirlinck <teirllm@dms.auburn.edu> writes:

> Look, I feel like I have to react to this.  Your quote clearly seems
> to clearly suggest that I am just "offended" by the blinking cursor
> for no other reason than that I am a dogmatic purist old-fashioned
> Emacs user who uses nothing else.  I clearly said in previous postings
> that the blinking cursor produced discomfort to me because of
> neuro-physiological differences with what presumably is the majority
> of people.

Sorry, I missed that. I did not intend to imply that you were
stretching the truth with regards to your own discomfort.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Richard Stallman]

      I clearly said in previous postings
    that the blinking cursor produced discomfort to me because of
    neuro-physiological differences with what presumably is the majority
    of people.

I believe you.

What we should do depends on how common this condition is.  What
fraction of users react this way?  Is it 10%?  1%?  .01%?

Maybe someone can find something in the user interface literature
which reports on this.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[David Kastrup]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>       I clearly said in previous postings
>     that the blinking cursor produced discomfort to me because of
>     neuro-physiological differences with what presumably is the majority
>     of people.
>
> I believe you.
>
> What we should do depends on how common this condition is.  What
> fraction of users react this way?  Is it 10%?  1%?  .01%?
>
> Maybe someone can find something in the user interface literature
> which reports on this.

It appears clear to me that things like selecting a static cursor (I'd
imagine for a blind person using a screen reader the blinking would be
less than optimal) or a pure white on black display (there are also
people that can't work with the "normal" black on white displays)
warrant options of their own even when there are few people afflicted
with it.  I know several people that use inverse video because of
extreme discomfort.

And the same people then use fonts that are so tiny that they'd give
me a headache.  One can assume that those kind of people manage with a
terminal and an Emacs manual page at some time, so command line
options would be appropriate.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Lennart Borgman]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>

>       I clearly said in previous postings
>     that the blinking cursor produced discomfort to me because of
>     neuro-physiological differences with what presumably is the majority
>     of people.
>
> I believe you.
>
> What we should do depends on how common this condition is.  What
> fraction of users react this way?  Is it 10%?  1%?  .01%?
>
> Maybe someone can find something in the user interface literature
> which reports on this.

I know nothing about this particular matter, but it may be more common than
one expects. In a well controlled study of flourescent lighting it turned
out that about 25% of the population could be sensitive to that sort of
blinking. The study results showed increased headaches, stomach problems
etc. The blinking in this case is however invisible (around 100Hz) and the
magnitude only around 50%. (High frequency flourescent lighting was used for
comparision in this double blind study. This is around 30kHz and maybe a few
% in magnitude - if I remember correctly.)

Of course blinking light has a more overall impact on your eyes and brain.
So you can not compare directly. It seemed in that case however that young
people (with maybe faster neurology) had most difficulties with the blinking
light.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[David Kastrup]

Luc Teirlinck <teirllm@dms.auburn.edu> writes:

> David Kastrup wrote:
>
>    Because it is a visual feature that you want to see or not.
>
> So are "Syntax Highlighting", "Active Region Highlighting" and
> "Paren Match Highlighting".

But they are affecting your manner of working, not your comfort level.

>    Then perhaps we should rename the menu.  It definitely does not
>    "hide" things, since a scrollbar or toolbar or speedbar or
>    similar does not get hidden, but removed or switched off.
>
> After you remove them, you can not see them anymore, which people may
> think of as "hidden", even though this is technically speaking not the
> way things are implemented.  On the other hand, you definitely can
> still see the cursor, whether it blinks or not.
>
> Nitpickingly correct would be:
>
> Show/ Do Not Show,

I already proposed "Appearance".

> but "Hidden" is the name most other applications seem to use, even
> though they too just "remove" stuff instead of "hiding" it.
>
>    Personally, if settings render Emacs unusable (like you claim)
>    for some audience, then these settings must be changeable from
>    the command line with the man page saying so.
>
> Having to study a man page before even being able to casually and
> comfortably try out an application does usually not encourage people
> to try out that application.

People that go into connuptions over a blinking cursor can't casually
try out anything.

>    That is the only safe way people will have a chance to arrive at
>    a working Emacs without suffering a heart attack or epilepsy or
>    blindness or whatever beforehand.
>
> I said that it produced discomfort.  I did not claim that it was a
> health hazard.
>    
>    This is not something that can easily be "solved", we can at best
>    make a poll.  A poll among users would be most relevant, and if
>    we don't have that, a poll on developers.
>
> This is unbelievable.  We are talking about adding an option to a
> menu, not about changing a default.

We are talking about making Emacs a good recommendation.  And part of
that is making the menus a useful well-organized place to visit.

If you say that a blinking cursor of the Emacs size gives you
discomfort, then I can report that we had a similar problem with
preview-latex in Emacs-21.x when it blinked on images.  Having
something the size of your screen flash on you is not funny.

I think that the basic visibility would also be ensured if the cursor
was a hollow box cursor.  It is still more conspicuous than the
"usual" blinking line cursor that is common with other editors, and I
think I could work with it as a default.

"Hide/Show" is something more appropriate for things like outline
mode, I'd say.  "Appearance" would be a reasonably good name, and the
cursor type belongs in there.  If a blinking box is intolerable to a
nontrivial number of users (and I have seen no evidence for it up to
now) I'd be fine with using a blinking hollow box instead _as_
_default_.  People who don't like the default will then be able to
survive long enough to use the "Appearance" menu for changing it.

So I'd ask people (including Luc) to try out
(setq cursor-type 'hollow)
and check whether they could get friendly with that.  It is a pity
that this is not a customizable option, you need setq-default for it.
Probably it would be easier to do this by Xdefaults, but I am too lazy
to look it up.

That would make the cursor consistent with what we currently use for
images, as well.

I definitely think that customizing the cursor belongs in a submenu
together with scrollbars and similar folderol (and probably inverse
video, too).  And if the only way to put it there without endangering
accessibility is to change the default to a less brutal cursor, then I
think it much more reasonable to reconsider the default rather than
make it a rather unmotivated top-level option.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Kim F. Storm]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> I think that the basic visibility would also be ensured if the cursor
> was a hollow box cursor.  It is still more conspicuous than the
> "usual" blinking line cursor that is common with other editors, and I
> think I could work with it as a default.

I made such a change some time back, but it was reverted because some
fonts (Japanese or Chinese IIRC) looked horrible with a hollow cursor.

The hollow cursor is ok for cursor-in-non-selected-windows, but
not as the default cursor.

>
> "Hide/Show" is something more appropriate for things like outline
> mode, I'd say.  "Appearance" would be a reasonably good name, and the
> cursor type belongs in there.  

Agree.

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Luc Teirlinck]

David Kastrup wrote:

   So I'd ask people (including Luc) to try out (setq cursor-type
   'hollow) and check whether they could get friendly with that.  It
   is a pity that this is not a customizable option, you need
   setq-default for it.  Probably it would be easier to do this by
   Xdefaults, but I am too lazy to look it up.

I never suggested changing the default behavior.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Robert J. Chassell]

Today's GNU Emacs CVS snapshot, Wed, 2005 Mar  2  11:50 UTC
GNU Emacs 22.0.50.13 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.6.2) 
started with

    /usr/local/src/emacs/src/emacs -Q

As suggested, I just tried out

    (setq cursor-type 'hollow)

for my selected window.

In summary, I find it irritating to use any kind of blinking cursor,
even hollow.  I know that some like blinking cursors just as some
like <blink> text on Web sites.  But I do not.

A non-blinking cursor-type 'hollow is OK for a non-selected window and
can be left that way.

As I suggested earlier, Emacs should return to the format used by
other user environments, and offer a non-blinking cursor by default.

If not, Emacs should make the option easy for people to change.  The
blinking or non-blinking cursor option and the options for shapes for
selected and non-selected windows are more important than the current
"Truncate Long Lines in this Buffer".  (I am not claiming that the
long lines option is unimportant, only that it is a buffer specific
option that often does not effect `this buffer'.  Consequently, it is
less important than general options that have effects in all buffers.)

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                         
    bob@rattlesnake.com                         GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[David Kastrup]

"Robert J. Chassell" <bob@rattlesnake.com> writes:

> As I suggested earlier, Emacs should return to the format used by
> other user environments, and offer a non-blinking cursor by default.

All editing applications I know use a blinking vertical bar for text
entry.  So your proposal is not a question of "returning to the format
used by other user environments".

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Miles Bader]

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:44:20 +0000 (UTC), Robert J. Chassell
<bob@rattlesnake.com> wrote:
> As I suggested earlier, Emacs should return to the format used by
> other user environments, and offer a non-blinking cursor by default.

I believe gnome-terminal blinks its block cursor by default (but I
don't know any easy way of checking what the default settings in gnome
are, so I can't state this with 100% certainty -- anyway, google turns
up FAQ entries for gnome-terminal describing how to turn off the
blinking cursor etc).  Other gtk apps, mozilla etc. certainly do,
using a bar cursor.

Anyway, we've already had this flame war.

If some people are really physically repulsed by it to the degree Luc
professes (I admit, I suspect hyperbole), an option in the option menu
seems reasonable, and certainly not worth _another_ long flame war.

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Luc Teirlinck]

Miles Bader wrote:

   If some people are really physically repulsed by it to the degree Luc
   professes (I admit, I suspect hyperbole),

Your suspicions are wrong.

   Anyway, we've already had this flame war.

I did not subscribe to this site at that time.  I did not propose to
change the default back, so I was not trying to rediscuss something on
which a decision had already been made.

It is sad that people tend to start flaming when other people point
out the fact that they are different from the majority in one respect
or the other, and that they refuse to believe it and start suspecting
all kinds of ulterior motives, even after several other people point out
that same thing.  Why is the fact that other people are different in
some respects so hard to swallow (or believe)?

There are at least two other people on this list who have said that their
reactions to a blinking cursor are similar to mine.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Richard Stallman]

      _Every_ option is supposed to be completely
    irrelevant to the majority of people.  If not, the default is wrong.

That is true.  But not every option should be in the Options menu;
only the few most important options should be there.

I just started gedit and it too seems to use a blinking line cursor.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Andreas Schwab]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> I just started gedit and it too seems to use a blinking line cursor.

So does kedit.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Luc Teirlinck]

>From my previous message:


   >                    Hence, I believe that it needs to be on the
   >                    Options
   > menu and be very visible there, i.e. on top.  The patch below
   >                    does that.

   IMO, that is the wrong place.

   It belongs on the Options=>Show/hide submenu.

I managed to mess things up again.  I forgot to attribute the above
quote to Kim, which was especially confusing, since I was actually
replying to a message by David (which after going back to read Kim's
message, I somehow forgot).  Anyway, David seconded Kim's claim above,
so I probably did not misrepresent anything.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Richard Stallman]

Does anyone else agree that this option should be in the Options menu?

What do other applications do about this?  My version of mozilla has
no way to change whether the cursor blinks, but it is rather old.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[David Kastrup]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> Does anyone else agree that this option should be in the Options menu?
>
> What do other applications do about this?  My version of mozilla has
> no way to change whether the cursor blinks, but it is rather old.

I think the contentious issue is that we are having both a block
cursor as well as blinking.  Either choice alone would not worry
anybody.  The standard "text insertion" cursor for other apps is '(bar
. 1), but that is quite too inconspicuous when you are looking for it
on a full screen of text (as opposed to a small text entry field).
'bar is pretty much usable in contrast (apparently width 2, at least
on my display).  That kind of cursor has the advantage that it can be
_between_ letters, and it is in pretty common use.  I have mixed
feelings about that.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Kim F. Storm]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Does anyone else agree that this option should be in the Options menu?
>>
>> What do other applications do about this?  My version of mozilla has
>> no way to change whether the cursor blinks, but it is rather old.
>
> I think the contentious issue is that we are having both a block
> cursor as well as blinking.  Either choice alone would not worry
> anybody.  The standard "text insertion" cursor for other apps is '(bar
> . 1), but that is quite too inconspicuous when you are looking for it
> on a full screen of text (as opposed to a small text entry field).
> 'bar is pretty much usable in contrast (apparently width 2, at least
> on my display).  That kind of cursor has the advantage that it can be
> _between_ letters, and it is in pretty common use.  I have mixed
> feelings about that.

On the Appearence menu, there could be a Cursor submenu with
these choices:

      [x] Blinking
      <x> Block
      < > Bar
      < > Hollow
      
-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Robert J. Chassell]

   On the Appearence menu, there could be a Cursor submenu with
   these choices:

         [x] Blinking
         <x> Block
         < > Bar
         < > Hollow

Please remember the non-selected window, too!  

Consider a default mouse user interface like this for a Cursor menu in
Options that applies to all windows and all frames:

        Selected Window         Non-selected Window

         [ ] Blinking              [ ] Blinking

         <x> Block                 < > Block
         < > Hollow Block          <x> Hollow Block
         < > Bar                   < > Bar
             Width <2>                 Width <2>

for
      (blink-cursor-mode 0)
      (setq cursor-type 'box)

for the selected window, and also writing code for the non-selected
window.  Currently the documentation for `cursor-type' says that

    When the buffer is displayed in a nonselected window,
    this variable has no effect; the cursor appears as a hollow box.

The new function and variable might be:

      (blink-cursor-mode-non-selected-window 0)
      (setq cursor-type-non-selected-window 'hollow)

For a mouse user interface, buffer specific options might go into a
submenu of some sort. 

Presumably, a mouse user interface that sets values permanently makes
use of the same automatic code writing library as Customize?  Is that
right?  Or does it use a different library?  I do not use my mouse in
the Emacs menu and have never looked into the matter.

In any event, Customize could write buffer specific options as well as
general options into a .emacs file so the user can see what the
expressions look like, the way Customize does now with `baud-rate' and
other such variables.

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                         
    bob@rattlesnake.com                         GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[David Kastrup]

"Robert J. Chassell" <bob@rattlesnake.com> writes:

>    On the Appearence menu, there could be a Cursor submenu with
>    these choices:
>
>          [x] Blinking
>          <x> Block
>          < > Bar
>          < > Hollow
>
> Please remember the non-selected window, too!  
>
> Consider a default mouse user interface like this for a Cursor menu in
> Options that applies to all windows and all frames:
>
>         Selected Window         Non-selected Window
>
>          [ ] Blinking              [ ] Blinking
>
>          <x> Block                 < > Block
>          < > Hollow Block          <x> Hollow Block
>          < > Bar                   < > Bar
>              Width <2>                 Width <2>

And so forth and so on.  Trying to get into hyperbole, right?  We
don't need a blinking non-selected cursor.  And also the menus need
not accommodate _all_ choices.  In a submenu of its own, choices are
cheap to offer, anyway.  I don't see much sense in having a blinking
non-selected cursor.  A full block would be the same as a selected
xterm, and non-blinking small shapes hard to see.  The hollow block
has the disadvantage of not looking good with some ideographs, but I'd
save worrying about that until somebody complains.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Kim F. Storm]

"Robert J. Chassell" <bob@rattlesnake.com> writes:

>    On the Appearence menu, there could be a Cursor submenu with
>    these choices:
>
>          [x] Blinking
>          <x> Block
>          < > Bar
>          < > Hollow
>
> Please remember the non-selected window, too!  

Based on the current functionality, that would be:

	[x] Blinking
	<x> Block
	< > Bar
	< > Hollow
        [x] In non-selected windows

>          < > Bar                   < > Bar
>              Width <2>                 Width <2>

IMO, we don't have to be able to specify every detail of every option
in the menu -- so the width of the bar cursor should be left out.
Besides, I don't see how you can change that value via the menu.

> The new function and variable might be:
>
>       (blink-cursor-mode-non-selected-window 0)
>       (setq cursor-type-non-selected-window 'hollow)

I don't see any point in extending the cursor-in-non-selected-windows
functionality beyond the current hollow box cursor.

Specifically, I don't see any point in a blinking cursor in
non-selected windows.

>
> For a mouse user interface, buffer specific options might go into a
> submenu of some sort. 

I don't think a user is supposed to change buffer specific options
like that - Lisp modes may do that, or if needed, the user should
do it via a hook.

>
> Presumably, a mouse user interface that sets values permanently makes
> use of the same automatic code writing library as Customize?  Is that
> right?  Or does it use a different library?  I do not use my mouse in
> the Emacs menu and have never looked into the matter.

I don't know whether Options=>Save Options integrates with Customize
or not.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Luc Teirlinck]

Kim Storm wrote:

   I don't think a user is supposed to change buffer specific options
   like that - Lisp modes may do that, or if needed, the user should
   do it via a hook.

A user definitely can change buffer (as opposed to mode) specific
options.  `set-variable' provides for this.  The Options menu
currently contains, at top level, "Truncate Long Lines in this Buffer",
which is buffer-local (_not_ mode local).

   I don't know whether Options=>Save Options integrates with Customize
   or not.

Yes.  It saves by writing into the `custom-set-[variables,faces]' forms.
There are some problems in this respect with "Word Rap in Text Modes",
which saves all of the current value of text-mode-hook into those
forms, which might be inappropriate.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Richard Stallman]

       On the Appearence menu, there could be a Cursor submenu with
       these choices:

	     [x] Blinking
	     <x> Block
	     < > Bar
	     < > Hollow

Now is not the time to consider new features like this.
Please don't continue the discussion in these lines.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Jason Rumney]

Richard Stallman wrote:

>Does anyone else agree that this option should be in the Options menu?
>
>What do other applications do about this?  My version of mozilla has
>no way to change whether the cursor blinks, but it is rather old.
>  
>
Very few applications let you change the type of cursor they use. Those 
that do, will bury the option somewhere within their equivalent of 
`customize', because they expect that the user will set it to their 
preference once, then never need to touch it again. If mozilla has this 
as an option, I expect you have to delve into the configuration files 
for it.  It is probably worth making the cursor type a custom option at 
least, it appears not to be now (I'm looking at default-cursor-type, 
maybe that's the wrong setting).

As others have pointed out, it is more common to have a blinking bar 
cursor when text is set to insert, and to use block cursor to indicate 
overwrite mode for those applications that use a blinking cursor. 
cua-mode already has code for changing the cursor based on whether we 
are inserting or overwriting (or it did last time I looked), it might be 
worth extracting the relevant code from there and turning it on by default.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Richard Stallman]

    As others have pointed out, it is more common to have a blinking bar 
    cursor when text is set to insert, and to use block cursor to indicate 
    overwrite mode for those applications that use a blinking cursor. 
    cua-mode already has code for changing the cursor based on whether we 
    are inserting or overwriting (or it did last time I looked), it might be 
    worth extracting the relevant code from there and turning it on by default.

I am not going to accept that idea.  Bar cursors are too hard to see,
so I don't want the default Emacs mode to use them.  (The default
Emacs editing mode is not overwriting.)

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Juri Linkov]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> Does anyone else agree that this option should be in the Options menu?

Yes.  If not directly on the top level, then at least in one of the
submenus.  Since Emacs has the blinking cursor enabled by default, then
there should be an easy way to disable it.  Also a year ago I proposed
in http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2004-02/msg00223.html
to add a new command line option:

  --no-blinking-cursor, -nbc    disable blinking cursor

In case there will be a consensus to disable the blinking cursor
by default (AFAIK, XEmacs already does this), then the option
should be the opposite:

  --blinking-cursor, -bc        enable blinking cursor

> What do other applications do about this?

Most applications have no easy way to disable blinking cursors.
So everyone who want to do it, has to spend too much time searching an
appropriate option.  To help people to find such an option quickly
there is a page with instructions how to turn blinking cursors off in
most popular applications: http://www.jurta.org/prog/noblink.en.html

> My version of mozilla has no way to change whether the cursor
> blinks, but it is rather old.

There is no such option in Mozilla Preferences UI.  However, in
Mozilla there is the variable ui.caretBlinkTime which can be set to 0
through about:config or directly in user.js.  In very old versions,
putting *blinkRate: 0 in .Xresources should help.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Richard Stallman]

      Also a year ago I proposed
    in http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2004-02/msg00223.html
    to add a new command line option:

      --no-blinking-cursor, -nbc    disable blinking cursor

I would agree to that.  Would you please install it?

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Per Abrahamsen]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> Does anyone else agree that this option should be in the Options menu?

Yes, please.  

A google search on "emacs turn off blinking cursor (without the quotes)
gives around 10000 hits.  That is 10 times more than a similar search
with "blinking cursor" replaced by "fringe", but only a fifth than the
search for "tool bar" or "menu bar".

I personally have the fringe and menu bar, but have turned off
blinking cursor and the tool bar.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Richard Stallman]

    A google search on "emacs turn off blinking cursor (without the quotes)
    gives around 10000 hits.  That is 10 times more than a similar search
    with "blinking cursor" replaced by "fringe", but only a fifth than the
    search for "tool bar" or "menu bar".

That is persuasive evidence; I am convinced.  Since this does not
fit in the Show/Hide menu, let's add it at top level.

Would someone please do that?

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Luc Teirlinck]

Richard Stallman wrote:

   That is persuasive evidence; I am convinced.  Since this does not
   fit in the Show/Hide menu, let's add it at top level.

   Would someone please do that?

Done.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Kim F. Storm]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     A google search on "emacs turn off blinking cursor (without the quotes)
>     gives around 10000 hits.  That is 10 times more than a similar search
>     with "blinking cursor" replaced by "fringe", but only a fifth than the
>     search for "tool bar" or "menu bar".
>
> That is persuasive evidence; I am convinced.  Since this does not
> fit in the Show/Hide menu, let's add it at top level.


That is FALSE evidence!!!

The search:

  emacs turn off "blinking cursor" -info -xemacs

gives just 163 hits on google.

In comparison

  emacs turn off fringe -info -xemacs

gives 543 hits.


> Since this does not fit in the Show/Hide menu, let's add it at top level.

Please don't do that.  The Optoins menu is already too long.

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Andreas Schwab]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:

> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>     A google search on "emacs turn off blinking cursor (without the quotes)
>>     gives around 10000 hits.  That is 10 times more than a similar search
>>     with "blinking cursor" replaced by "fringe", but only a fifth than the
>>     search for "tool bar" or "menu bar".
>>
>> That is persuasive evidence; I am convinced.  Since this does not
>> fit in the Show/Hide menu, let's add it at top level.
>
>
> That is FALSE evidence!!!
>
> The search:
>
>   emacs turn off "blinking cursor" -info -xemacs
>
> gives just 163 hits on google.
>
> In comparison
>
>   emacs turn off fringe -info -xemacs
>
> gives 543 hits.

Never believe in a statistic you have not faked yourself.

SCNR.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Miles Bader]

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 22:11:50 +0100, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> wrote:
> >     A google search on "emacs turn off blinking cursor (without the quotes)
> >     gives around 10000 hits.  That is 10 times more than a similar search
> >     with "blinking cursor" replaced by "fringe", but only a fifth than the
> >     search for "tool bar" or "menu bar".
> >
> > That is persuasive evidence; I am convinced.  Since this does not
> > fit in the Show/Hide menu, let's add it at top level.
> 
> That is FALSE evidence!!!

I think another factor is that many people don't know that the proper
term for the fringe -- I've seen a lot of posts asking something like
"how do get rid of that funny blank area".

If there are other Emacs users who share Luc's extremely strong
reaction to the blinking cursor, but who might not be so familiar with
emacs, maybe it's worthwhile even if the number of "blinking haters"
in general is not as large as claimed.  But I have no idea how to make
that judgement.

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Richard Stallman]

    >     A google search on "emacs turn off blinking cursor (without the quotes)
    >     gives around 10000 hits.  That is 10 times more than a similar search
    >     with "blinking cursor" replaced by "fringe", but only a fifth than the
    >     search for "tool bar" or "menu bar".
    >
    > That is persuasive evidence; I am convinced.  Since this does not
    > fit in the Show/Hide menu, let's add it at top level.


    That is FALSE evidence!!!

    The search:

      emacs turn off "blinking cursor" -info -xemacs

    gives just 163 hits on google.

I do not do much web searching.  Could you explain the difference?

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Luc Teirlinck]

Richard Stallman wrote:

   I do not do much web searching.  Could you explain the difference?

Basically, as usual in web searching, most of the hits produced by the
searches of either Per or Kim are false hits, both in the case of
"blinking cursor" and "fringe".  I do not fancy going through all
10000 of Per's hits and carefully reading through all of them to check
which ones are real and then counting them.  But there is enough stuff
in there of the type:

;; Blinking cursor is spawn of the Evil One
    (blink-cursor-mode nil)

to show that many people struggle with this problem.  It is not just
Emacs.  For instance, many people use patches to the Linux kernel to
disable blinking.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: Putting blink-cursor-mode in Options menu.

[Kim F. Storm]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     >     A google search on "emacs turn off blinking cursor (without the quotes)
>     >     gives around 10000 hits.  That is 10 times more than a similar search
>     >     with "blinking cursor" replaced by "fringe", but only a fifth than the
>     >     search for "tool bar" or "menu bar".
>     >
>     > That is persuasive evidence; I am convinced.  Since this does not
>     > fit in the Show/Hide menu, let's add it at top level.


>
>
>     That is FALSE evidence!!!
>
>     The search:
>
>       emacs turn off "blinking cursor" -info -xemacs
>
>     gives just 163 hits on google.
>
> I do not do much web searching.  Could you explain the difference?

The quotes around "blinking cursor" requires that those two words are
adjacent in matching documents.  This eliminates false hits which just
have the words blinking and cursor anywhere in the text.

-info means not to include hits which include the word "info" -- looking
at the original matches, _many_ of them originated from copies of emacs'
info files, so specifying -info eliminates those false hits.

-xemacs means to ignore hits which are related to xemacs.

A simple search which turns up 10000 hits cannot be taken as
evidence of anything...

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk