M-Tab on w32 (and other window systems?)

M-Tab on w32 (and other window systems?)

[Lennart Borgman]

The citation below is from nxml-mode.info. Is this something that should be
adopted generally in Emacs?

"The traditional GNU Emacs key combination for completion in a buffer
is `M-<TAB>'. However, many window systems and window managers use this
key combination themselves (typically for switching between windows)
and do not pass it to applications. It's hard to find key combinations
in GNU Emacs that are both easy to type and not taken by something
else.  `C-<RET>' (i.e.  pressing the Enter or Return key, while the
Ctrl key is held down) is available.  It won't be available on a
traditional terminal (because it is indistinguishable from Return), but
it will work with a window system.  Therefore we adopt the following
solution by default: use `C-<RET>' when there's a window system and
`M-<TAB>' when there's not.  In the following, I will assume that a
window system is being used and will therefore refer to `C-<RET>'."

Re: M-Tab on w32 (and other window systems?)

[David Kastrup]

"Lennart Borgman" <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> writes:

> The citation below is from nxml-mode.info. Is this something that should be
> adopted generally in Emacs?
>
> "The traditional GNU Emacs key combination for completion in a buffer
> is `M-<TAB>'. However, many window systems and window managers use this
> key combination themselves (typically for switching between windows)
> and do not pass it to applications. It's hard to find key combinations
> in GNU Emacs that are both easy to type and not taken by something
> else.  `C-<RET>' (i.e.  pressing the Enter or Return key, while the
> Ctrl key is held down) is available.  It won't be available on a
> traditional terminal (because it is indistinguishable from Return), but
> it will work with a window system.  Therefore we adopt the following
> solution by default: use `C-<RET>' when there's a window system and
> `M-<TAB>' when there's not.  In the following, I will assume that a
> window system is being used and will therefore refer to `C-<RET>'."

C-RET is taken by modes already.  I find that Esc and TAB keys are
close enough to make typing Esc TAB a simple enough operation.  Even
though I am at the moment using Blackbox which does not intercept
M-TAB at all.  But I am used to Esc TAB, and don't find it hard to
reach.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

RE: M-Tab on w32 (and other window systems?)

[Drew Adams]

    I find that Esc and TAB keys are
    close enough to make typing Esc TAB a simple enough operation.
    ...I am used to Esc TAB, and don't find it hard to reach.
    
ESC TAB is `complete-symbol'.

Re: M-Tab on w32 (and other window systems?)

[Miles Bader]

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:56:12 +0100, Lennart Borgman
<lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> wrote:
> "The traditional GNU Emacs key combination for completion in a buffer
> is `M-<TAB>'. However, many window systems and window managers use this
> key combination themselves (typically for switching between windows)
> and do not pass it to applications.

Note that this can also be typed using `ESC TAB', which is pretty
convenient (the ESC and TAB keys are almost next to one another).

Maybe people with typical modern keyboards with the ESC key off in an
obscure location might like some other combination better -- but such
keyboards usually _also_ have the control key in some bizarro obscure
location too, so I'm not sure that C-RET is much better...

[BTW who's fault is that anyway?  I seem to recall it was some ISO
keyboard standard in the '80s that started all this keyboard-from-hell
crap...]

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: M-Tab on w32 (and other window systems?)

[Lennart Borgman]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Miles Bader" <snogglethorpe@gmail.com>

> Note that this can also be typed using `ESC TAB', which is pretty
> convenient (the ESC and TAB keys are almost next to one another).

Unfortunately this does not work with viper-mode. Another problem is that
the manuals only mentions Alt-Tab. That is no good for beginners.

Re: M-Tab on w32 (and other window systems?)

[Johan Bockgård]

"Lennart Borgman" <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> writes:

> From: "Miles Bader" <snogglethorpe@gmail.com>
>
>> Note that this can also be typed using `ESC TAB', which is pretty
>> convenient (the ESC and TAB keys are almost next to one another).
>
> Unfortunately this does not work with viper-mode. Another problem is
> that the manuals only mentions Alt-Tab. That is no good for
> beginners.

Why didn't anyone mention `C-M-i'? I find it quite comfortable, and
it's what i normally use.

-- 
Johan Bockgård

Re: M-Tab on w32 (and other window systems?)

[Lennart Borgman]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Johan Bockgård" <bojohan+news@dd.chalmers.se>


> "Lennart Borgman" <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> writes:
>
> > From: "Miles Bader" <snogglethorpe@gmail.com>
> >
> >> Note that this can also be typed using `ESC TAB', which is pretty
> >> convenient (the ESC and TAB keys are almost next to one another).
> >
> > Unfortunately this does not work with viper-mode. Another problem is
> > that the manuals only mentions Alt-Tab. That is no good for
> > beginners.
>
> Why didn't anyone mention `C-M-i'? I find it quite comfortable, and
> it's what i normally use.

Thanks, that is very useful! However there was another point in my original
message: Info only mention Alt-Tab. To me this seems ignorant since on w32
at least Alt-Tab can not be used at all. I would appreciate if this was
changed.

Re: M-Tab on w32 (and other window systems?)

[Reiner Steib]

On Tue, Feb 15 2005, Lennart Borgman wrote:

> Thanks, that is very useful! However there was another point in my original
> message: Info only mention Alt-Tab. 

Could you be more specific?  Most Emacs info nodes use `M-<TAB>' [1]
and the tutorial explains that you can use ESC instead of M- (Meta):

,----[ C-h t ]
|  M-<chr>  means hold the META or EDIT or ALT key down while typing <chr>.
| 	  If there is no META, EDIT or ALT key, instead press and release the
| 	  ESC key and then type <chr>.  We write <ESC> for the ESC key.
`----

> To me this seems ignorant since on w32 at least Alt-Tab can not be
> used at all. I would appreciate if this was changed.

I don't think this problem is specific to windows.  Probably there are
a lot of Window managers for X11 that bind M-TAB by default.

Bye, Reiner.

[1] C-h i d m Emacs RET i M-TAB RET , , ,
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: M-Tab on w32 (and other window systems?)

[Lennart Borgman]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Reiner Steib" <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc>

> Could you be more specific?  Most Emacs info nodes use `M-<TAB>' [1]
> and the tutorial explains that you can use ESC instead of M- (Meta):
...
> I don't think this problem is specific to windows.  Probably there are
> a lot of Window managers for X11 that bind M-TAB by default.

Thanks for the info, I was not sure!

What I meant is that since Alt-Tab (or M-<TAB>) is used by window managers
it is unfortunate that Info mention Alt-Tab for completion. It would be much
more useful if it mentioned M-C-i. (Or Esc-Tab, but that does not work with
viper-mode so it is a bit less useful. I would not be using Emacs without
viper-mode I guess.)

Re: M-Tab on w32 (and other window systems?)

[Richard Stallman]

    Thanks, that is very useful! However there was another point in my original
    message: Info only mention Alt-Tab. To me this seems ignorant since on w32
    at least Alt-Tab can not be used at all.

Do you mean ESC TAB?  If so, why doesn't that work on W32?

Re: M-Tab on w32 (and other window systems?)

[Lennart Borgman]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>

>     Thanks, that is very useful! However there was another point in my
original
>     message: Info only mention Alt-Tab. To me this seems ignorant since on
w32
>     at least Alt-Tab can not be used at all.
>
> Do you mean ESC TAB?  If so, why doesn't that work on W32?

On w32 the Alt key is used for META in Emacs. However the combination
Alt-Tab (as it is usually called on w32) can not be used in Emacs on w32
since the window manager takes it. (This seems to be the case for some
window managers on *nix like OS:es too.)

Re: M-Tab on w32 (and other window systems?)

[James Cloos]

>>>>> "Miles"   == Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> "Lennart" == Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> writes:

Miles> Note that this can also be typed using `ESC TAB', which is pretty
Miles> convenient (the ESC and TAB keys are almost next to one another).

Lennart> Unfortunately this does not work with viper-mode.

I also just noticed that if you are too slow to hit TAB after ESC --
ie if you wait for the string ESC to show up in the minibuffer -- you
get an out of range error in some cases:

  Debugger entered--Lisp error: (args-out-of-range "ESC tab" 0 22)
    call-interactively(describe-key-briefly)

OTOH, when using the key rather than getting its current binding the
out of range does not occur.   

I'm running:

GNU Emacs 22.0.50.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.6.2) of 2005-02-14 on lugabout

via gentoo's emacs-cvs ebuild, grabbed and compiled Sunday night.

-JimC
-- 
James H. Cloos, Jr. <cloos@jhcloos.com>

Re: M-Tab on w32 (and other window systems?)

[Richard Stallman]

    > Note that this can also be typed using `ESC TAB', which is pretty
    > convenient (the ESC and TAB keys are almost next to one another).

    Unfortunately this does not work with viper-mode.

Emulators are not important enough to be the basis for decisions about
standard Emacs commands.  We choose them for the sake of ordinary
Emacs usage.   Emulators have to adapt to that.

Re: M-Tab on w32 (and other window systems?)

[Lennart Borgman]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>

>     Unfortunately this does not work with viper-mode.
>
> Emulators are not important enough to be the basis for decisions about
> standard Emacs commands.  We choose them for the sake of ordinary
> Emacs usage.   Emulators have to adapt to that.

While I in principle agree I believe that some are really more important
than others and must be considered because of the (potential) user base. We
of course want more users.

Re: M-Tab on w32 (and other window systems?)

[It's me FKtPp ;)]

"Lennart Borgman" <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> writes:

> The citation below is from nxml-mode.info. Is this something that should be
> adopted generally in Emacs?
>
> "The traditional GNU Emacs key combination for completion in a buffer
> is `M-<TAB>'. However, many window systems and window managers use this
> key combination themselves (typically for switching between windows)
> and do not pass it to applications. It's hard to find key combinations
> in GNU Emacs that are both easy to type and not taken by something
> else.

I think C-M-i does this.

Re: M-Tab on w32 (and other window systems?)

[Richard Stallman]

There is no logical connection between C-RET and M-TAB,
so I don't like making an alias.  I'd rather recommend ESC TAB.

Re: M-Tab on w32 (and other window systems?)

[Lennart Borgman]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>

> There is no logical connection between C-RET and M-TAB,
> so I don't like making an alias.  I'd rather recommend ESC TAB.

It is much better (but there is the problem with viper-mode).

C-M-i seems to be mapped to M-TAB, I guess because C-i is mapped to TAB. (I
guess you can distinguish between them on a window system.) That is very
useful too, but kind of hidden. Maybe that could be pointed out somehow?