Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[Per Abrahamsen]

In Emacs 21, Customize buffers started using the "boxed" face for
buttons, instead of [bracked] bold text.  Unfortunately, there are
some problems with the implementation:

1) The change was implemented in Customize, not in the Widget, meaning
   buttons are inconsistent even among applications 

2) Indentation was never updated, so instead of


[ins] [del] Foo
            Bar

we get

ins del Foo
           Bar

3) The use of "raised" and "pressed" display does not seem to
   correspond to any standardised look and feel I know of.

4) There seem to be some redisplay problems associated with the
   buttons, that make complex types (especially faces) hard to use
   over a remote line.

5) Since Customize uses buttons a lot, the display becomes very
   cluttered.  

All of these problems, except maybe the last, are fixable, and all
represents problems that should be fixed.  However, nobody have seem
to be worked on that since Emacs 21 was released.

My suggestion is therefore that we "go back" to use a textual
representation for buttons (and other stuff) in Customize.  I think
that would represent a large increase in usability.

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[Miles Bader]

On Sat, Jun 05, 2004 at 04:12:41PM +0200, Per Abrahamsen wrote:
> My suggestion is therefore that we "go back" to use a textual
> representation for buttons (and other stuff) in Customize.  I think
> that would represent a large increase in usability.

That's quite silly.  The `graphical' buttons are much, much, much more
recogizable as "buttons" than the old style.

The problems you mentioned are minor glitches, not something that calls for a
reversion; if someone fixes them, great, but if not, we should just keep the
status-quo; what you propose instead is a major change for the worse.

Geez.

-Miles
-- 
Next to fried food, the South has suffered most from oratory.
  			-- Walter Hines Page

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[Per Abrahamsen]

Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:

> That's quite silly.  The `graphical' buttons are much, much, much more
> recogizable as "buttons" than the old style.

Sure, but they make the interface nearly unusable.  And whenever I'm
using other code based on the widget.el interface, or even the
button.el interface, I'm reminded that there is no techincal reason
Cutsomize should be unusable, apart for the half-implemented
incompatible button interface.

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[Miles Bader]

On Sun, Jun 06, 2004 at 04:47:55PM +0200, Per Abrahamsen wrote:
> > That's quite silly.  The `graphical' buttons are much, much, much more
> > recogizable as "buttons" than the old style.
> 
> Sure, but they make the interface nearly unusable.

In your original post you complained about lots of things.  I _agree_ that
the customize mouse-over reaction is inconsistent, and it ought to just be
mouse-down.

However you are giving the impression that you somehow think the `3d' faces
are bad, even if they were used a bit more consistently with the way other
use them.  _That_ simply doesn't make the least bit of sense.  Am I wrong
that you feel this way?

[Whatever the case, `nearly unusable' is clearly hyperbole -- I've never
heard _any_ negative comments from a user about the customize buttons.]

-Miles
-- 
/\ /\
(^.^)
(")")
*This is the cute kitty virus, please copy this into your sig so it can spread.

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[Per Abrahamsen]

Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:

> However you are giving the impression that you somehow think the `3d' faces
> are bad, even if they were used a bit more consistently with the way other
> use them. 

If all the points I raised were fixed, they would not be bad.

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[Miles Bader]

Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:
>> However you are giving the impression that you somehow think the `3d' faces
>> are bad, even if they were used a bit more consistently with the way other
>> use them. 
>
> If all the points I raised were fixed, they would not be bad.

Er, they're already `not bad', though of course they might be better.
I'll look and see how simple it would be to fix some of these things
though (especially the mouse-over behavior seems kind of silly -- I'll
bet it was added just to show off the `mouse-face' property... :-).

You might want to update the sources you're using, BTW -- based on the
examples you gave, you seem to be using something several years old.

-Miles
-- 
"Though they may have different meanings, the cries of 'Yeeeee-haw!' and
 'Allahu akbar!' are, in spirit, not actually all that different."

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[Richard Stallman]

    > That's quite silly.  The `graphical' buttons are much, much, much more
    > recogizable as "buttons" than the old style.

    Sure, but they make the interface nearly unusable.

This claim surprises me.  Yes, you mentioned some bugs, but they
don't seem disastrous; I am surprised by the importance that you
are attaching to them.

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[Richard Stallman]

    3) The use of "raised" and "pressed" display does not seem to
       correspond to any standardised look and feel I know of.

How would you suggest implementing a look for pressed and unpressed
buttons?

    My suggestion is therefore that we "go back" to use a textual
    representation for buttons (and other stuff) in Customize.

I consider that too drastic--but fixing these specific problems
(when we're sure what would be an improvement) would be useful.

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[Per Abrahamsen]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     3) The use of "raised" and "pressed" display does not seem to
>        correspond to any standardised look and feel I know of.
>
> How would you suggest implementing a look for pressed and unpressed
> buttons?

The look is fine, it is how it is used.  The pressed button look is,
in other GUI's, used when the button is pressed, i.e. on mouse-down
not on mouse-over.  I'm not sure a distinct mouse-over face is needed.
A change in mouse cursor type when the mouse is over a button is more
common in other application.

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[Paul Pogonyshev]

Per Abrahamsen wrote:
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >     3) The use of "raised" and "pressed" display does not seem to
> >        correspond to any standardised look and feel I know of.
> >
> > How would you suggest implementing a look for pressed and unpressed
> > buttons?
> 
> The look is fine, it is how it is used.  The pressed button look is,
> in other GUI's, used when the button is pressed, i.e. on mouse-down
> not on mouse-over.  I'm not sure a distinct mouse-over face is needed.
> A change in mouse cursor type when the mouse is over a button is more
> common in other application.

Another common approach is to change button color to a bit lighter one.

Paul

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[Richard Stallman]

    > How would you suggest implementing a look for pressed and unpressed
    > buttons?

    The look is fine, it is how it is used.  The pressed button look is,
    in other GUI's, used when the button is pressed, i.e. on mouse-down
    not on mouse-over.

So you're saying that simply removing the mouse-face would make
it better?

    A change in mouse cursor type when the mouse is over a button is more
    common in other application.

Emacs has no facility for that, but it might not be too hard to add one
by modifying the code that now does mouse highlighting.

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[Per Abrahamsen]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     > How would you suggest implementing a look for pressed and unpressed
>     > buttons?
>
>     The look is fine, it is how it is used.  The pressed button look is,
>     in other GUI's, used when the button is pressed, i.e. on mouse-down
>     not on mouse-over.
>
> So you're saying that simply removing the mouse-face would make
> it better?

Yes.  Or change it to a "raised button" face with a lighter color
tone, as Paul Pogonyshev suggested.

It would be nice also to switch to the pressed-button face on
mouse-down, but that would be more work.

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[Miles Bader]

Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:
> It would be nice also to switch to the pressed-button face on
> mouse-down, but that would be more work.

Still, having buttons that go down when you press them seems pretty
basic...

-Miles
-- 
"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that
 you do it."  Mahatma Gandhi

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[Richard Stallman]

    > It would be nice also to switch to the pressed-button face on
    > mouse-down, but that would be more work.

    Still, having buttons that go down when you press them seems pretty
    basic...

I think it won't be terribly hard.  The down-event could put on
an overlay, and the up-event could take it away.

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[Kim F. Storm]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     > How would you suggest implementing a look for pressed and unpressed
>     > buttons?
> 
>     The look is fine, it is how it is used.  The pressed button look is,
>     in other GUI's, used when the button is pressed, i.e. on mouse-down
>     not on mouse-over.
> 
> So you're saying that simply removing the mouse-face would make
> it better?
> 
>     A change in mouse cursor type when the mouse is over a button is more
>     common in other application.
> 
> Emacs has no facility for that, but it might not be too hard to add one
> by modifying the code that now does mouse highlighting.

Emacs HAS the facility to do that -- using a pointer property.
Try the following patch:


*** wid-edit.el	20 May 2004 00:13:17 +0200	1.127
--- wid-edit.el	07 Jun 2004 11:27:26 +0200	
***************
*** 386,392 ****
      ;; We want to avoid the face with image buttons.
      (unless (widget-get widget :suppress-face)
        (overlay-put overlay 'face (widget-apply widget :button-face-get))
!       (overlay-put overlay 'mouse-face widget-mouse-face))
      (overlay-put overlay 'help-echo help-echo)))
  
  (defun widget-mouse-help (window overlay point)
--- 386,392 ----
      ;; We want to avoid the face with image buttons.
      (unless (widget-get widget :suppress-face)
        (overlay-put overlay 'face (widget-apply widget :button-face-get))
!       (overlay-put overlay 'pointer 'hand))
      (overlay-put overlay 'help-echo help-echo)))
  
  (defun widget-mouse-help (window overlay point)

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[Kim F. Storm]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:

> >     A change in mouse cursor type when the mouse is over a button is more
> >     common in other application.
> > 
> > Emacs has no facility for that, but it might not be too hard to add one
> > by modifying the code that now does mouse highlighting.
> 
> Emacs HAS the facility to do that -- using a pointer property.
> Try the following patch:

Actually, the following patch works better, as it also changes
the pointer shape over images (like checkboxes):


*** wid-edit.el	20 May 2004 00:13:17 +0200	1.127
--- wid-edit.el	08 Jun 2004 01:23:34 +0200	
***************
*** 385,392 ****
      (overlay-put overlay 'evaporate t)
      ;; We want to avoid the face with image buttons.
      (unless (widget-get widget :suppress-face)
!       (overlay-put overlay 'face (widget-apply widget :button-face-get))
!       (overlay-put overlay 'mouse-face widget-mouse-face))
      (overlay-put overlay 'help-echo help-echo)))
  
  (defun widget-mouse-help (window overlay point)
--- 385,392 ----
      (overlay-put overlay 'evaporate t)
      ;; We want to avoid the face with image buttons.
      (unless (widget-get widget :suppress-face)
!       (overlay-put overlay 'face (widget-apply widget :button-face-get)))
!     (overlay-put overlay 'pointer 'hand)
      (overlay-put overlay 'help-echo help-echo)))
  
  (defun widget-mouse-help (window overlay point)

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[David Kastrup]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:

> storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:
> 
> > >     A change in mouse cursor type when the mouse is over a button is more
> > >     common in other application.
> > > 
> > > Emacs has no facility for that, but it might not be too hard to add one
> > > by modifying the code that now does mouse highlighting.
> > 
> > Emacs HAS the facility to do that -- using a pointer property.
> > Try the following patch:
> 
> Actually, the following patch works better, as it also changes
> the pointer shape over images (like checkboxes):

I don't think that the pointer shape should be changed over images
without any indication that it has some special behavior.  Not every
image is something special to click on.

Indicators might be mouse-face, a keymap of its own, a mouse-over property.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[Kim F. Storm]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:
> 
> > storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:
> > 
> > > >     A change in mouse cursor type when the mouse is over a button is more
> > > >     common in other application.
> > > > 
> > > > Emacs has no facility for that, but it might not be too hard to add one
> > > > by modifying the code that now does mouse highlighting.
> > > 
> > > Emacs HAS the facility to do that -- using a pointer property.
> > > Try the following patch:
> > 
> > Actually, the following patch works better, as it also changes
> > the pointer shape over images (like checkboxes):
> 
> I don't think that the pointer shape should be changed over images
> without any indication that it has some special behavior.  Not every
> image is something special to click on.

The change is made in widget-specify-button -- I thought it was used
for buttons only, and then it seems sensible to treat text and image
buttons alike (supposing that all buttons have some "special" behaviour).

> 
> Indicators might be mouse-face, a keymap of its own, a mouse-over property.

Indicators of what?

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[David Kastrup]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:

> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:
> > > 
> > > Actually, the following patch works better, as it also changes
> > > the pointer shape over images (like checkboxes):
> > 
> > I don't think that the pointer shape should be changed over images
> > without any indication that it has some special behavior.  Not every
> > image is something special to click on.
> 
> The change is made in widget-specify-button -- I thought it was used
> for buttons only, and then it seems sensible to treat text and image
> buttons alike (supposing that all buttons have some "special"
> behaviour).

Of course it is.  I had not thought this was in button-specialized
code.  Don't ask me where I think it was.

> > Indicators might be mouse-face, a keymap of its own, a mouse-over
> > property.
> 
> Indicators of what?

Of being intended to be a clickable button.  Of course, being in a
routine that is supposed to create a clickable button is also an
indicator of that.

Just forget the nonsense I wrote.  Sorry for that.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[Per Abrahamsen]

I think that patch will be a great help in usability.  Especially if
we also make similar patch to button.el.  The "hand" button can then
be used as a semi-reliable clue that there is something to click on.

The following patch is not tested:

2004-06-08  Per Abrahamsen  <abraham@dina.kvl.dk>

	* button.el (default-button): Change to hand pointer over
	buttons. 

*** button.el.~1.13.~	2003-10-24 15:33:14.000000000 +0200
--- button.el	2004-06-08 11:23:32.000000000 +0200
***************
*** 78,83 ****
--- 78,84 ----
  (put 'default-button 'mouse-face 'highlight)
  (put 'default-button 'keymap button-map)
  (put 'default-button 'type 'button)
+ (put 'default-button 'pointer 'hand)
  (put 'default-button 'action 'ignore)
  (put 'default-button 'help-echo "mouse-2, RET: Push this button")
  ;; Make overlay buttons go away if their underlying text is deleted.

... 

- It would probably be even better if widget-specify-button just set the
"default-button" category

- There are still code out there (such as Gnus) that implements
buttons manually, it should be fixed too.  Either by adding the hand
pointer, or by changing it to use widget.el or button.el.

Re: Customize interface: The use of "boxed" buttons

[Per Abrahamsen]

I think another reason the boxed button style does not work visually
in Customize, is that the button style is designed to buffers with a
grey background, same as the buttons.  On a white background, they
look totally out of place.  Perhaps they would work less bad if we
changed the default background color of Customize 

I think it is ironic that RMS originally told me to use a plain face
for buttons in Customize, as the bold font I used originally was to
visually intrusive.  And now we have the boxed buttons, which are a
zillion times more intrusive.