From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Lawyer's evaluation Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:44:58 -0400 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: Reply-To: rms@gnu.org NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1063926146 17934 80.91.224.253 (18 Sep 2003 23:02:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:02:26 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 19 01:02:24 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A07n6-00015r-00 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:02:24 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A07rI-0001aq-00 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:06:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1A07md-0008ST-0i for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:01:55 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.22) id 1A07m7-0008Nn-NF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:01:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.22) id 1A07cY-0006B5-0T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:51:31 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.164] (helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1A07cW-0006AP-Ew for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:51:28 -0400 Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.20) id 1A07WE-0001Ba-Di; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:44:58 -0400 Original-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:16472 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:16472 I asked our lawyer to evaluate a recent version of the proposal. Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:34:26 -0400 To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Emacs installer question to user In-Reply-To: Richard Stallman's message of Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:03:35 -0400 From: Eben Moglen X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In legal terms I think the suggestion is valid, and introduces no problems. In practical terms I like what he is saying, not in all details, and believe he's on the right track. A statement that "Emacs is free software," and a button to get more information on free software seems possible to me. E On Wednesday, 17 September 2003, Richard Stallman wrote: In legal terms, do you see anything wrong with this suggestion? (You can comment in other terms too, but it's the legal opinion that I particularly want.) To: rms@gnu.org Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: May I publish a Windows Installer for GNU Emacs? Organization: The XEmacs Project From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 15:54:36 +0900 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:07:30 -0400") Sender: "Stephen J. Turnbull" X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >>>>> "rms" == Richard Stallman writes: rms> A message in that tone is not a constructive contribution to rms> deciding what we should do. OK, here's a contructive version. Paraphrase: Make sure that the dialog itself makes clear that use of Emacs is entirely free under copyright law. While to those in the know, "Thanks!" and "I knew that!" are cute, the GNU GPL _is_ a legal document. Its purpose is likely to be quite unclear to the uninitiated. Those labels will occasionally be taken as a bad, if well-intended, joke of uncertain meaning. OTOH, I agree with the observation that users expect a EULA, and this is an opportunity to put something useful in front of them. Note that the GPL *is* a license, although not an "agreement". Without it, the user may not make copies, which we consider a natural part of ordinary usage. Granted, most people will just burn a CD containing the whole distribution, and thus trivially satisfy the conditions. But a license _is_ required, and there are some natural ways to go wrong (for example, just copying the installed Emacs tree, omitting the source distribution), so any humor may be a little risky, legally speaking. I suspect a terse statement of the four freedoms would fit and be appropriate here. Further, I would suggest that the GPL be presented (1) as the legal statement of the FSF's responsibilities to the user (NO WARRANTY etc), so please read that part, and (2) an invitation to participate in improvement of the software. With (2) in mind, you might consider substituting "How can I help?" or "I'd like to know more!" for "I knew that!", and that button's action would be to display some appropriate text. Probably the whole GNU Manifesto is too "heavy," but excerpts including the parts about "what we need", plus text specifically explaining how important "ordinary user" contributions such as bug reports and participation in c.emacs and gnu.emacs.* are, might actually be quite frequently read. Something like: ======================================================================== Thank you for choosing GNU Emacs. Please read the "GNU General Public License" displayed below. [[[[[[[[[[[[ scrollable text box containing preface and GPL ]]]]]]]]]]]] Summary Under copyright law, you are free to run this copy of GNU Emacs. The following General Public License states and protects additional rights that you possess. You need not accept or decline the License; you simply exercise those rights, as defined in the License, at your option. Please read it to learn precisely what they are. One of those rights is make additional copies of GNU Emacs for your own use. Another is to copy and redistribute it to your neighbors, as long as you give them a copy of everything, just as you got it. More, you may add features, fix defects, or use parts of GNU Emacs for your own purposes, and make and distribute copies of such derived software. In case of modification, we add more complex restrictions to ensure that all users can exercise these rights. According to law, if you redistribute copies of the software, verbatim or modified, you must follow the terms of the License. Please read the License, so you may freely share GNU Emacs with your neighbors according to its terms. This license is extended from the Free Software Foundation, and any authors of modifications, to you. Since all are free to modify and redistribute this software, no one can accept liability for any defects or problems that may arise in your use of GNU Emacs. This is explained in the NO WARRANTY section of the License. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE Version 2, June 1991 [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[ end scrollable text box ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] GNU Emacs includes many contributions from both dedicated developers and "just plain users". If you will use GNU Emacs and share verbatim copies with your neighbors, join us by clicking "Thank you all!" and starting to use GNU Emacs. If you would like to know how to contribute more concretely, or how to use parts of GNU Emacs for your own purposes, click "Tell me more." ["Thank you all!"] ["That's great! Tell me more, without legalese."] ======================================================================== Yeah, I know, all that's in the Preamble of the GPL. But it would require really fine print---bad associations, there---to get all those statements into the first screen if we just dive into the GPL. And I'm sorry, I couldn't see a good way to get "free software" in there; it really requires the supporting context that the Preamble gives. Hopefully a well-designed screen can attract them to read the Preamble (and the rest of the GPL). The "without legalese" phrase is a little risky; people might substitute clicking that button for reading the GPL. However, this could be considered a reasonable tradeoff to get many people to read anything at all. And sections of the GPL itself, plus pointers back to the full document, would be natural to include anyway. I considered that the GPL itself could be invoked by a button, but I think it's most likely to be read if the title is visible along with the summary. -- Institute of Policy and Planning Sciences http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN Ask not how you can "do" free software business; ask what your business can "do for" free software.