From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Masterson Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Stability of core packages Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 21:59:00 -0700 Message-ID: References: <87a5zj2vfo.fsf@gmail.com> <834jpifizy.fsf@gnu.org> <83y1mue1qi.fsf@gnu.org> <83sfd2e01f.fsf@gnu.org> <1a5e5837-513b-84d8-3260-cdbf42b71267@gutov.dev> <83sfcz9rf2.fsf@gnu.org> <09a49ab9-ac72-36a9-3e68-9c633710eba7@gutov.dev> <83r0sh8i1q.fsf@gnu.org> <35638c9d-e13f-fad8-5f95-ea03d65d4aa2@gmail.com> <87a5z3izst.fsf@web.de> <83v8hr7qk9.fsf@gnu.org> <871qkfirbl.fsf@web.de> <83ildr6qhu.fsf@gnu.org> <878re3bdj6.fsf@penguin> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10318"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" , joaotavora@gmail.com, jporterbugs@gmail.com, dmitry@gutov.dev, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs@mohsen.1.banan.byname.net Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri May 05 07:25:01 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1punwD-0002P1-2m for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:305855 Archived-At: David Masterson writes: oops ignore this=20 > emacs@mohsen.1.banan.byname.net writes: > >> What I am suggesting breaks the existing >> model. Let me start with some context. >> >> Because we use git for everything and because it >> is possible to take complete git snap shots of all >> relevant packages, it is possible to easily >> provide stability for the user based on snapshots. >> >> Consistent upgrades are then possible for new >> consistent git snapshots. So, based on the snapshots >> the packages are not stale and remain consistent >> while evolving. >> >> This is what doomemacs does. For every package, >> there is a git tag which doomemacs keeps with the >> adoption of the package. The tags are guaranteed >> to be consistent. With Blee (ByStar Libre Emacs >> Environment) I do the same but instead of keeping >> that tag with the packages, I keep central >> manifests for emacs releases. So, emacs-28.1 has >> its own packages manifest which can be upgraded >> from time to time. All upgrades go to the >> appropriate repo and get the appropriate tag based >> on the manifest. I do this across all emacs >> package archives -- which I see as collections of >> git repositories. >> >> If you want to go with something like this, you >> have to revisit the package retrieval model. >> >> For every release of emacs, you maintain a >> separate manifest. And you keep updating that at >> new releases and even in between releases. Since >> all emacs archives are git based, it is possible >> to apply this strategy to all of them -- where >> each take care of its own consistency. >> >> In practice, this has already happened for layers >> that sit on top of emacs (doomemacs, blee). It is >> a matter of adopting the higher layer model in the >> core. There are already many variations on the >> model of packages.el. >> >> If you want to go with this model, much needs to >> be revisited. But much will be gained. >> >> Again, these comments only deal with the meta >> topic not the at hand Eglot topic. But, it shows >> how eglot upgrades could have rolled back to >> emacs-28. >> >> ...Mohsen >> >> >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >>>> From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" >>>> Cc: joaotavora@gmail.com, jporterbugs@gmail.com, dmitry@gutov.dev, >>>> emacs-devel@gnu.org >>>> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 21:40:35 +0200 >>>> >>>> > Specifically, users of Emacs 28 and older, who had Eglot installed, >>>> > and expect Eglot to be automatically updated upon Emacs startup >>>> > whenever a new Eglot version is available, will now have their >>>> > expectations broken after they upgrade to Emacs 29, because Eglot is >>>> > now a built-in package, and package.el won't by default upgrade a >>>> > built-in package. >>>> =E2=80=A6 >>>> > So there's a dilemma here: which of the two groups of users to break= ? >>>> >>>> Not updating eglot until the next Emacs release shouldn=E2=80=99t caus= e breakage >>>> in any other packages, right? >>> >>> No, it shouldn't. With the obvious exception of the breakage that is >>> already part of the current Emacs release, which we somehow failed to >>> detect and fix before releasing it. >>> >>>> Except if a more modern eglot is a dependency of a non-built-in packag= e. >>> >>> Right. >>> >>>> I think that=E2=80=99s what I would prefer: I would treat being pulled= into >>>> Emacs as a stabilization step that switches the package from being on >>>> the latest version to being at the version in Emacs or the minimum >>>> version required by dependencies =E2=80=94 if that version is higher t= han the >>>> version in Emacs. Basically minimize the distance from the Emacs >>>> release. >>> >>> AFAIU, that is what will happen with Emacs 29 when it is released. >>> But things might change in Emacs 30, as we are currently discussing >>> what needs to be done to better support updating core packages. >> --=20 David Masterson