New Emacs Icon and Tango

New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Rodney Dawes]

Hi,

fschmitt came into #tango a few days ago to ask for feedback on the new
Emacs icon suggestions at http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/NewIcons.html .
I would suggest that the notebook style icon from Andrew Zhilin is the
best looking one, but could use a few changes to comply with the Tango
style guide, if you are looking to do that.

The perspective should be changed to match the other app icons in Tango.
There is an accessories-text-editor icon that would probably be a good
base for the Emacs icon.

On the subject of branding through, I am not quite sure what the best
way to do that is. I like the Gnu-horns E on the notepad. I'm not sure
that a notepad is the best metaphor for Emacs though, as it does so much
more than just edit text. The branding should be strong though, and
preferrably be done without having the text "Emacs" in the icon itself.
If the icon should say anything, it should be "this is Emacs, a very
powerful IDE and text processing solution", I think.

Also, for the GTK+ 2.x builds of Emacs, it would be cool if it could use
the GtkIconTheme API to grab the icons for items on the toolbar.

Anyway, these are my thoughts on the subject. Thanks for the interest
in the project. More people going along with the idea always helps. :)

-- dobey

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Lennart Borgman]

Rodney Dawes wrote:

>Hi,
>
>fschmitt came into #tango a few days ago to ask for feedback on the new
>Emacs icon suggestions at http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/NewIcons.html .
>I would suggest that the notebook style icon from Andrew Zhilin is the
>best looking one, but could use a few changes to comply with the Tango
>style guide, if you are looking to do that.
>
>The perspective should be changed to match the other app icons in Tango.
>There is an accessories-text-editor icon that would probably be a good
>base for the Emacs icon.
>
>On the subject of branding through, I am not quite sure what the best
>way to do that is. I like the Gnu-horns E on the notepad. I'm not sure
>that a notepad is the best metaphor for Emacs though, as it does so much
>more than just edit text. The branding should be strong though, and
>preferrably be done without having the text "Emacs" in the icon itself.
>If the icon should say anything, it should be "this is Emacs, a very
>powerful IDE and text processing solution", I think.
>
>Also, for the GTK+ 2.x builds of Emacs, it would be cool if it could use
>the GtkIconTheme API to grab the icons for items on the toolbar.
>
>Anyway, these are my thoughts on the subject. Thanks for the interest
>in the project. More people going along with the idea always helps. :)
>
>-- dobey
>  
>
Thanks for commenting. Do you mean the icons on this page?

    http://tango-project.org/Tango_Icon_Gallery

The icons on that page are in the size 16x16 and 22x22. On MS Windows 
16x16 and 32x32 are important sizes. Are there icon versions for 32x32 
too? What icon sizes is the most important from your perspective?

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Rodney Dawes]

The icons there are not all of the sizes. For the Tango icon theme, we
have 3 sizes. 16x16, 22x22, and SVG. At install time we also create
24x24 icons for GNOME, by adding a 1px border to 22x22 icons. For KDE,
we also render larger scale png files from the SVGs, at install time.
The SVG icons don't apepar on the page, as generating bitmaps from SVG
on a web server is currently a bit of a pain, when you don't own the
box it's running on. The SVG is designed to be used at 48x48, and so
scales down to 32x32 very nicely.

For Windows, there's no particular reason that 32x32 images can not
be generated and used. The way things work on Windows is different
technically as well, so I'm sure that doing the appropriate thing on
that platform, to use the icons, is fine. For the *nix builds though,
using the icon theme would probably be ideal.

-- dobey


On Fri, 2005-10-21 at 19:06 +0200, Lennart Borgman wrote:
> Thanks for commenting. Do you mean the icons on this page?
> 
>     http://tango-project.org/Tango_Icon_Gallery
> 
> The icons on that page are in the size 16x16 and 22x22. On MS Windows 
> 16x16 and 32x32 are important sizes. Are there icon versions for 32x32 
> too? What icon sizes is the most important from your perspective?
> 

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Richard M. Stallman]

    On the subject of branding through, I am not quite sure what the best
    way to do that is. I like the Gnu-horns E on the notepad. I'm not sure
    that a notepad is the best metaphor for Emacs though, as it does so much
    more than just edit text.

I am not sure either--but nobody has suggested a better idea (unless
you think the old "kitchen sink", used in the Emacs icon years ago, is
a better idea).

     The branding should be strong though, 

Do you mean that you think these icons should provide strong branding?
Or that you think we need to look for other icons that would provide
strong branding?  Those two meanings both fit your words.

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Rodney Dawes]

On Fri, 2005-10-21 at 18:19 -0400, Richard M. Stallman wrote:
>     On the subject of branding through, I am not quite sure what the best
>     way to do that is. I like the Gnu-horns E on the notepad. I'm not sure
>     that a notepad is the best metaphor for Emacs though, as it does so much
>     more than just edit text.
> 
> I am not sure either--but nobody has suggested a better idea (unless
> you think the old "kitchen sink", used in the Emacs icon years ago, is
> a better idea).

No. That would be a horrible idea. :) Maybe instead of the notepad style
icon, put the rings on the side, and add more of them, so that it looks
like a notebook?

>      The branding should be strong though, 
> 
> Do you mean that you think these icons should provide strong branding?
> Or that you think we need to look for other icons that would provide
> strong branding?  Those two meanings both fit your words.

I mean, I think Emacs needs a strong piece of branding, which may also
be incorporated into the icon. AZ's notepad-like icons are the only ones
that I think really do that, that were propsoed, although, most people
would not really get the E/horns thing. Then again, most everyone who is
going to use Emacs anyway, is a return customer, and already knows what
it is, and that it does so much more. I'm not sure what a lisp machine
would look like as an icon though. Maybe that would be better. :)

-- dobey

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Juri Linkov]

> I'm not sure what a lisp machine would look like as an icon though.

Like a box diagram of a cons cell?

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Lars Hansen]

Rodney Dawes wrote:
> On the subject of branding through, I am not quite sure what the best
> way to do that is. I like the Gnu-horns E on the notepad. I'm not sure
> that a notepad is the best metaphor for Emacs though, as it does so much
> more than just edit text. The branding should be strong though, and
> preferrably be done without having the text "Emacs" in the icon itself.
> If the icon should say anything, it should be "this is Emacs, a very
> powerful IDE and text processing solution", I think.

I agree. I like the looks of the notepad, but IMHO it resembles the icon
of notepad.exe on MS Windows to much. notepad.exe is no more than a
notepad, but Emacs is much more. But which metaphor is better?
Maybe this: Emacs is sometimes referred to as

   "The Swiss Army Knife of Editors"

since it has a tool for every need. But I don't know if it would do as
an icon.

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Lennart Borgman]

Lars Hansen wrote:

>Rodney Dawes wrote:
>  
>
>>On the subject of branding through, I am not quite sure what the best
>>way to do that is. I like the Gnu-horns E on the notepad. I'm not sure
>>that a notepad is the best metaphor for Emacs though, as it does so much
>>more than just edit text. The branding should be strong though, and
>>preferrably be done without having the text "Emacs" in the icon itself.
>>If the icon should say anything, it should be "this is Emacs, a very
>>powerful IDE and text processing solution", I think.
>>    
>>
>
>I agree. I like the looks of the notepad, but IMHO it resembles the icon
>of notepad.exe on MS Windows to much. notepad.exe is no more than a
>notepad, but Emacs is much more. But which metaphor is better?
>Maybe this: Emacs is sometimes referred to as
>
>   "The Swiss Army Knife of Editors"
>
>since it has a tool for every need. But I don't know if it would do as
>an icon.
>
A very important feature of Emacs for me (currently using MS Windows) is 
the portability. Maybe a bag of some kind with the Gnu-horns? (I would 
like a backpack, but that's me and it is too difficult in small sizes of 
course.)

In a bag you can carry many tools and you can move -- to GNU/Linux. The 
Gnu-horns tells where you are going.

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Lars Hansen]

Lennart Borgman wrote:

> A very important feature of Emacs for me (currently using MS Windows)
> is the portability. Maybe a bag of some kind with the Gnu-horns? (I
> would like a backpack, but that's me and it is too difficult in small
> sizes of course.)
>
> In a bag you can carry many tools and you can move -- to GNU/Linux.
> The Gnu-horns tells where you are going.

The portability is important, but I don't think it is the main feature
of Emacs. So I prefer "tools" or "editing tool" as a metaphor rather
than "portability". If just some talented artist would draw a swiss army
knife with the gnu horns on it ... :-)

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Lennart Borgman]

Lars Hansen wrote:

>Lennart Borgman wrote:
>
>  
>
>>A very important feature of Emacs for me (currently using MS Windows)
>>is the portability. Maybe a bag of some kind with the Gnu-horns? (I
>>would like a backpack, but that's me and it is too difficult in small
>>sizes of course.)
>>
>>In a bag you can carry many tools and you can move -- to GNU/Linux.
>>The Gnu-horns tells where you are going.
>>    
>>
>
>The portability is important, but I don't think it is the main feature
>of Emacs. So I prefer "tools" or "editing tool" as a metaphor rather
>than "portability". If just some talented artist would draw a swiss army
>knife with the gnu horns on it ... :-)
>  
>
One of the main feature of a swiss army knife is perhaps also the 
portability ;-)

But I do not believe it is possible to make a 16x16 swiss army knife 
with gnu horns ... -- or rather: I do not believe it is possible to 
recognize it ...

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Richard M. Stallman]

    If just some talented artist would draw a swiss army
    knife with the gnu horns on it ... :-)

The E that we use could be one of the tools that comes out of the
knife.

However, I like the knife-as-an-E that Drew made.

It would be easier to recognize as an E
if the top arm were as long as the bottom arm.
There is no need to put any kind of horns or E
on the body of the knife, and that would not be
visible in a small icon.

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[David Kastrup]

Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> writes:

> Lars Hansen wrote:
>
>>I agree. I like the looks of the notepad, but IMHO it resembles the icon
>>of notepad.exe on MS Windows to much. notepad.exe is no more than a
>>notepad, but Emacs is much more. But which metaphor is better?

Desktop?  Some recognizable table top above which the GNU horns are
floating (you'd probably need a drop shadow to get this across)?

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Lars Hansen]

David Kastrup wrote:

>Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> writes:
>
>  
>
>>Lars Hansen wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>I agree. I like the looks of the notepad, but IMHO it resembles the icon
>>>of notepad.exe on MS Windows to much. notepad.exe is no more than a
>>>notepad, but Emacs is much more. But which metaphor is better?
>>>      
>>>
>
>Desktop?  Some recognizable table top above which the GNU horns are
>floating (you'd probably need a drop shadow to get this across)?
>  
>
Sounds as a good idea!

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Lennart Borgman]

David Kastrup wrote:

>Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> writes:
>
>  
>
>>Lars Hansen wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>I agree. I like the looks of the notepad, but IMHO it resembles the icon
>>>of notepad.exe on MS Windows to much. notepad.exe is no more than a
>>>notepad, but Emacs is much more. But which metaphor is better?
>>>      
>>>
>
>Desktop?  Some recognizable table top above which the GNU horns are
>floating (you'd probably need a drop shadow to get this across)?
>  
>
Could look nice I believe. A version of the x-directory-desktop at 
http://tango-project.org/Tango_Icon_Gallery with smaller versions and 
perhaps a little bit flattened look could be used. Above that I see 
three dimensional horns with a fuzzy shadow on the desktop. (Light from 
upper left as now.)

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Kim F. Storm]

Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> writes:

> Could look nice I believe. A version of the x-directory-desktop at
> http://tango-project.org/Tango_Icon_Gallery with smaller versions and
> perhaps a little bit flattened look could be used. Above that I see
> three dimensional horns with a fuzzy shadow on the desktop. (Light
> from upper left as now.)

What about using the "happy face" with gnu horns ?


-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Miles Bader]

2005/10/23, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk>:
> What about using the "happy face" with gnu horns ?

Because it would make Emacs the object of ridicule until the end of time.

-miles
--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[David Kastrup]

>2005/10/23, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk>:
>> What about using the "happy face" with gnu horns ?
>
>Because it would make Emacs the object of ridicule until the end of time.
>
>-miles
>
>--
>Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Your signature appears to contradict you.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Richard M. Stallman]

    Because it would make Emacs the object of ridicule until the end of time.

Isn't it already?

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[David Kastrup]

"Richard M. Stallman" <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     Because it would make Emacs the object of ridicule until the end
>     of time.
>
> Isn't it already?

It's the object of ridicule until the end of _tape_.  The jury is
still out about that end of time thing.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Kim F. Storm]

Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com> writes:

> 2005/10/23, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk>:
>> What about using the "happy face" with gnu horns ?
>
> Because it would make Emacs the object of ridicule until the end of time.

That was my own reaction to the kitchen sink icon...  and I still use
emacs.  

Actually, I was half joking, half serious -- we were talking about
makeing an icon which expressed the essense of using Emacs -- so the
happy face was an idea to let the icon express people's reaction to
using emacs, rather than the program itself (which is really hard to
describe in 16x16 pixels).

We could also make the icon show a happy face with a mustache shaped
like gnu horns...  :-)

But I like AZ's icons too.

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Miles Bader]

2005/10/24, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk>:
> Actually, I was half joking, half serious -- we were talking about
> makeing an icon which expressed the essense of using Emacs -- so the
> happy face was an idea to let the icon express people's reaction to
> using emacs, rather than the program itself

It's a nice thought, but the happy face's reputation is unfortunately
quite tarnished these days, because of massive overuse in various
circles; it now conveys more an image of "low-rent trailerpark aol
user" than anything to do with happiness.  A shame, but ... anyway,
not something we should be associating ourselves with.

-Miles
--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Frank Schmitt]

Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com> writes:

> 2005/10/24, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk>:
>> Actually, I was half joking, half serious -- we were talking about
>> makeing an icon which expressed the essense of using Emacs -- so the
>> happy face was an idea to let the icon express people's reaction to
>> using emacs, rather than the program itself
>
> It's a nice thought, but the happy face's reputation is unfortunately
> quite tarnished these days, because of massive overuse in various
> circles; it now conveys more an image of "low-rent trailerpark aol
> user" than anything to do with happiness.  A shame, but ... anyway,
> not something we should be associating ourselves with.

I second that. Let's stick to AZs icons (or some enhanced version of
those).

-- 
Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider
that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough
space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize
this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bullshit nobody will read.

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Richard M. Stallman]

    What about using the "happy face" with gnu horns ?

Its drawback is that it has nothing to do with Emacs or what Emacs
does.

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Richard M. Stallman]

    A very important feature of Emacs for me (currently using MS Windows) is 
    the portability. Maybe a bag of some kind with the Gnu-horns? (I would 
    like a backpack, but that's me and it is too difficult in small sizes of 
    course.)

Portability is a quality of the WAY Emacs does its job.
It is NOT the job itself.

RE: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Drew Adams]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 458 bytes --]

       "The Swiss Army Knife of Editors"

    since it has a tool for every need. But I don't know if it would do as
    an icon.

Weird - I was just this afternoon playing with making a swiss army knife
that forms an E. But I don't expect it to 1) be legible at 16x16 or 2) look
good. Shades of the kitchen-sink syndrome, I guess.

I didn't finish playing with it, and didn't try shrinking it, but just for
laughs, here's what I came up with. Don't ask how

[-- Attachment #2: knife-1o.gif --]
[-- Type: image/gif, Size: 10330 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 142 bytes --]

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Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Florian Weimer]

* Drew Adams:

> Weird - I was just this afternoon playing with making a swiss army knife
> that forms an E. But I don't expect it to 1) be legible at 16x16 or 2) look
> good. Shades of the kitchen-sink syndrome, I guess.

I think this design could get you into trouble. 8-(

At least you'd have to change the color, stylize the tools.  And yet
Victorinox might not be too happy about it.

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Miles Bader]

2005/10/23, Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>:
> I think this design could get you into trouble. 8-(
>
> At least you'd have to change the color, stylize the tools.  And yet
> Victorinox might not be too happy about it.

Given that there are multiple companies that make real swiss army
knives, they may not have much control over the design... [they
probably do have some sort of rights to the logo they use on such
knives, but Drew didn't use that.]

-miles
--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Frank Schmitt]

Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com> writes:

> 2005/10/23, Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>:
>> I think this design could get you into trouble. 8-(
>>
>> At least you'd have to change the color, stylize the tools.  And yet
>> Victorinox might not be too happy about it.
>
> Given that there are multiple companies that make real swiss army
> knives, they may not have much control over the design... [they
> probably do have some sort of rights to the logo they use on such
> knives, but Drew didn't use that.]

Hmm, I think there were two and one went out of business. (Just for the
record.)

-- 
Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider
that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough
space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize
this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bullshit nobody will read.

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[David Kastrup]

Frank Schmitt <ich@frank-schmitt.net> writes:

> Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> 2005/10/23, Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>:
>>> I think this design could get you into trouble. 8-(
>>>
>>> At least you'd have to change the color, stylize the tools.  And yet
>>> Victorinox might not be too happy about it.
>>
>> Given that there are multiple companies that make real swiss army
>> knives, they may not have much control over the design... [they
>> probably do have some sort of rights to the logo they use on such
>> knives, but Drew didn't use that.]
>
> Hmm, I think there were two and one went out of business. (Just for the
> record.)

<URL:http://www.victorinox.ch>
<URL:http://www.wenger-knife.ch>

Both alive and kicking.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Frank Schmitt]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

>>> Given that there are multiple companies that make real swiss army
>>> knives, they may not have much control over the design... [they
>>> probably do have some sort of rights to the logo they use on such
>>> knives, but Drew didn't use that.]
>>
>> Hmm, I think there were two and one went out of business. (Just for the
>> record.)
>
> <URL:http://www.victorinox.ch>
> <URL:http://www.wenger-knife.ch>
>
> Both alive and kicking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Army_Knife#Victorinox_and_Wenger:

However, on 26 April 2005 Victorinox acquired Wenger, thus turning the
Swiss Army knife market into a monopoly for supplying the knives to the
Swiss Army once again. However, on the consumer side Victorinox has
stated that it intends to keep both brands intact.

-- 
Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider
that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough
space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize
this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bullshit nobody will read.

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Ken Manheimer]

On 10/22/05, Lars Hansen <larsh@soem.dk> wrote:
> Rodney Dawes wrote:
> > On the subject of branding through, I am not quite sure what the best
> > way to do that is. I like the Gnu-horns E on the notepad. I'm not sure
> > that a notepad is the best metaphor for Emacs though, as it does so much
> > more than just edit text. The branding should be strong though, and
> > preferrably be done without having the text "Emacs" in the icon itself.
> > If the icon should say anything, it should be "this is Emacs, a very
> > powerful IDE and text processing solution", I think.

please, lets not get overly fancy!  emacs is *most recognizably* an
editor, lets use that simple, conveyable concept as the mnemonic.

as it says in the Emacs Widget Library guide
(http://www.dina.kvl.dk/~abraham/custom/widget.html), emacs provides
an "incredible powerful text 'widget'" (sic).  those of us who know it
well know it provides more than that - but also recognize it as a text
editor (foremost, for many if not most of us).  those who don't know
about it are best acquainted with it first as a text editor. 
stressing the other stuff, early on, makes it harder to approach, not
easier.  it *belongs* and is easily findable on, for example, the
cygwin Setup tool menu in editors, and it should have an icon that
reflects this chief purpose.

> I agree. I like the looks of the notepad, but IMHO it resembles the icon
> of notepad.exe on MS Windows to much. notepad.exe is no more than a
> notepad, but Emacs is much more. But which metaphor is better?
> Maybe this: Emacs is sometimes referred to as
>
>    "The Swiss Army Knife of Editors"
>
> since it has a tool for every need. But I don't know if it would do as
> an icon.

people mostly don't go looking for a tool that does everything, they
go looking for a tool that does some particular thing.  an icon that
says "this does everything" is not useful as an introducer, and i
think it is a poor reminder - a poor mnemonic.

(now, i happen to be one of those people who uses emacs for my shell,
development and compilation environment, outlining, file management,
encryption, and whatever else it does well enough.  i leverage my
expertise.  the fact that it's maintained a text-oriented focus,
howeer, has served all these purposes in surprising and unprecedented
ways.  i have no doubt editing is central to its purpose and power.)

the kitchen sink and swiss army knife are funny, but it's an inside
joke.  an icon should be simple, visually and conceptually.  i don't
know of another simple symbol for an editor besides a notepad (maybe
we should call the image a "notebook"), so i'm comfortable with that
(despite microsoft's penchent for co-opting concepts with generically
named tools).

ken
ken.manheimer@gmail.com

(PS i seem to recall that andrew made a 16x16 png which has the
notebook binding rings on top - i think it should go on lennart's page
with andrews other ones, instead of the older version, but i don't
think it's there yet...)

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Lennart Borgman]

Ken Manheimer wrote:

>(PS i seem to recall that andrew made a 16x16 png which has the
>notebook binding rings on top - i think it should go on lennart's page
>with andrews other ones, instead of the older version, but i don't
>think it's there yet...)
>  
>
I think it is. Please look again. Turning off javascript on that page 
may make it easier to see what is there.

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Ken Manheimer]

On 10/22/05, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> wrote:
> Ken Manheimer wrote:
>
> >(PS i seem to recall that andrew made a 16x16 png which has the
> >notebook binding rings on top - i think it should go on lennart's page
> >with andrews other ones, instead of the older version, but i don't
> >think it's there yet...)
> >
> >
> I think it is. Please look again. Turning off javascript on that page
> may make it easier to see what is there.

very strange.

i see the wider assortment when i just now tried IE, including the but
when i look at with firefox (my customary browser), of andrew zhilin's
icons i see only the first row - repeated, if i have javascript
enabled, or solely against a white background if i disable javascript.
 haven't looked at the page source to investigate.

(and i must say, looking at the 16x16 notebook version vs the 16x16
emblem-on-a-plaque style, i like the latter more, find it quite
striking.  my preference is for that, with the notebook-style in the
larger ones, and the common features - the squiggle, background color
and glossy highlights - conveying the brand between them...)

ken
ken.manheimer@gmail.com

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Ken Manheimer]

On 10/22/05, Ken Manheimer <ken.manheimer@gmail.com> wrote:

> (and i must say, looking at the 16x16 notebook version vs the 16x16
> emblem-on-a-plaque style, i like the latter more, find it quite
> striking.  my preference is for that, with the notebook-style in the
> larger ones, and the common features - the squiggle, background color
> and glossy highlights - conveying the brand between them...)

i want to strengthen this sentiment.  the squiggle on that glossy
field is a really excellent insignia prospect - outstanding, in my
estimation, even by commercial standards.

in the abstract, it's pretty and distinctive - crucial attributes.  as
a literal emblem, it has the strong suggestions of the Emacs E and the
GNU horns.  i like both the full one and the truncated one for the
smallest icon - think the're similar enough to maintain coherence.  i
suggest considering adoption of it as the graphical insignia for
emacs, in general, not just for the icons...

(and no, i have no connection w/andrew zhilin, i'm not shilling for
him, his mother didn't pay me anything to gush over his icons.-)

ken

RE: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Drew Adams]

    people mostly don't go looking for a tool that does everything, they
    go looking for a tool that does some particular thing.  an icon that
    says "this does everything" is not useful as an introducer, and i
    think it is a poor reminder - a poor mnemonic.

    (now, i happen to be one of those people who uses emacs for my shell,
    development and compilation environment, outlining, file management,
    encryption, and whatever else it does well enough.  i leverage my
    expertise.  the fact that it's maintained a text-oriented focus,
    howeer, has served all these purposes in surprising and unprecedented
    ways.  i have no doubt editing is central to its purpose and power.)

    the kitchen sink and swiss army knife are funny, but it's an inside
    joke.  an icon should be simple, visually and conceptually.  i don't
    know of another simple symbol for an editor besides a notepad (maybe
    we should call the image a "notebook"), so i'm comfortable with that
    (despite microsoft's penchent for co-opting concepts with generically
    named tools).

I second everything Ken said. I knew, for instance, that the swiss army
knife image I played with cannot be appropriate as an icon because it cannot
be made legible at a small size.

And his more important point is spot on: if we try to make any association
between the image and the meaning/use of Emacs, it should be the plain-text
editor meaning/use - not the
does-everything-has-everything-including-the-kitchen-sink meaning/use (and
not, IMO, necessarily the gnu association either). Advertise Emacs as a
plain-text editor - newbies will discover soon enough that it is really a
portal to beatitude and collective self-realization ;-).

And, as I mentioned in an earlier post, we need not try to make any
association at all - the image can be totally abstract or an everyday
object, as long as it is noticeable, rememberable, and attractive.

It sounds to me like people are converging on Andrew Zhilin's icons. We can
go with those, IMO, though there is no hurry and we could still entertain
other ideas, keeping AZ's as the front contender to beat.

I like the idea of offering (to users) several different color schemes for
the same icon design (whatever design we choose) - because people use _very_
different color schemes for their desktops and Emacs itself. Some are
dark-background metalico-neonoid, others are pastel-background
daisy-meadowish, and so on. IOW, let's pick a design, and then come up with
several color schemes and offer them all.

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[David Kastrup]

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

>     the kitchen sink and swiss army knife are funny, but it's an
>     inside joke.  an icon should be simple, visually and
>     conceptually.  i don't know of another simple symbol for an
>     editor besides a notepad (maybe we should call the image a
>     "notebook"), so i'm comfortable with that (despite microsoft's
>     penchent for co-opting concepts with generically named tools).
>
> I second everything Ken said. I knew, for instance, that the swiss army
> knife image I played with cannot be appropriate as an icon because it cannot
> be made legible at a small size.
>
> And his more important point is spot on: if we try to make any
> association between the image and the meaning/use of Emacs, it
> should be the plain-text editor meaning/use - not the
> does-everything-has-everything-including-the-kitchen-sink
> meaning/use (and not, IMO, necessarily the gnu association
> either). Advertise Emacs as a plain-text editor - newbies will
> discover soon enough that it is really a portal to beatitude and
> collective self-realization ;-).

I was thinking about how to bring across the notion that this notebook
is somewhat more than a first glance would suggest, and got the idea
of something sticking out.  Maybe two tiny horns from the bindings?
They'd not be important, so it would be ok if they were just
recognizable at higher resolution.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Richard M. Stallman]

    It sounds to me like people are converging on Andrew Zhilin's icons.

I like them too, and I've sent him the form to arrange a copyright
assignment.

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Stefan Monnier]

>     It sounds to me like people are converging on Andrew Zhilin's icons.
> I like them too,

Same here.  They look good enough that I see no reason to look any further.


        Stefan

Re: New Emacs Icon and Tango

[Kevin Rodgers]

Lars Hansen wrote:
 > I agree. I like the looks of the notepad, but IMHO it resembles the icon
 > of notepad.exe on MS Windows to much. notepad.exe is no more than a
 > notepad, but Emacs is much more. But which metaphor is better?

I like the irony of that: Clicking on a notepad icon and finding a fully
functional text editor (Emacs) instead of that... thing.

-- 
Kevin Rodgers