From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Visual cleanup for customize buffers Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:05:55 -0800 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1137185166 9713 80.91.229.2 (13 Jan 2006 20:46:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:46:06 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jan 13 21:46:05 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ExVo8-00077M-Ty for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:46:01 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ExVqH-0003yF-UR for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:48:14 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1ExUHe-00005A-Uk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:08:23 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1ExUHc-0008Ua-QK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:08:21 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ExUHc-0008Tu-6P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:08:20 -0500 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.228] (helo=agminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1ExUKd-0007MZ-Ks for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:11:27 -0500 Original-Received: from rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.49]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k0DJ647o018157 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:06:05 -0600 Original-Received: from rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k0DJ64Hs005529 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:06:04 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dhcp-amer-rmdc-csvpn-gw6-141-144-115-191.vpn.oracle.com [141.144.115.191]) by rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with SMTP id k0DJ63DT005518 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:06:04 -0700 Original-To: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Importance: Normal X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:49015 Archived-At: It seems like the trend is to add or extend the clutter rather than reducing it. Reducing the clutter should be one of the main goals in reworking Customize, after the release. Why? They would just "save all options" -- just like any other GUI applications do when you click "Save" or "Appy" or "Ok". I honestly don't see why emacs has to be different here. Being different (be default) is just confusing. This probably deserves more discussion, after the release. My a priori feeling (meaning that you might convince me otherwise) is that _because_ Emacs lets you set things without saving them (automatically), you must also be able to save individual changes. And _because_ multiple (even many!) changes might have been made, if we let users save more than one at a time then they should be able to specify which changes to save. It is too dangerous to simply save everything that has been changed when you click a Save button. You must be able to see what will be saved. And, preferably, you should be able to modify the set of saves to be made. IOW, "Emacs has to be different here", I think, because it is different in letting you set without saving (which feature I wouldn't want to sacrifice). You can end up with lots of changes, some of which you might even have forgotten you made, and some of which you do not really want to save. This difference is magnified in importance by the fact that Emacs is typically used in very long editor sessions - people keep the same session running for days, weeks, and even months at a time. It is too easy to forget that you changed something long ago which you don't necessarily want to save for future sessions. By making the changes that will be saved explicit (i.e., notifying the user), I think everyone should be satisfied. Those who want Save to simply save everything would just confirm (not hard to do). Those who want to save only some changes would have the opportunity to do so.