From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: describe-bindings: ^L, bad order, naming Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 13:27:43 -0800 Message-ID: References: <89DEE8B2-EA6A-4347-A9AB-D1B99C58E725@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1131658244 1970 80.91.229.2 (10 Nov 2005 21:30:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 21:30:44 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 10 22:30:35 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EaJxj-0002pW-VR for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:28:07 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EaJxj-0006ns-De for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:28:03 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EaJxY-0006nn-NN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:27:52 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EaJxY-0006nY-3w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:27:52 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EaJxX-0006nV-IY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:27:52 -0500 Original-Received: from [148.87.122.30] (helo=rgminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1EaJxX-00019q-Bo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:27:51 -0500 Original-Received: from rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.49]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id jAALRmU3010003 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:27:48 -0700 Original-Received: from rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id jAALRm6k027556 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:27:48 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dradams-lap.us.oracle.com [130.35.177.126]) by rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with SMTP id jAALRlft027550 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:27:48 -0700 Original-To: "Emacs-Devel '" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <89DEE8B2-EA6A-4347-A9AB-D1B99C58E725@gmail.com> X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:45701 Archived-At: describe-bindings separates the different groups with ^L even though the text that is output is intended to be human-readable. Isn't there a nicer way the groups can be separated? I also get a long list with latin key characters that are bound to encoded-kbd-self-insert-ccl. That's rather annoying. If this needs to be listed (why?), it should come at the end. As a novice user when trying out the describe-bindings function, I would see that there is a lot of uninteresting technical stuff at the beginning, so I would get rid of the window and try something else (like annoying people with questions in news groups...). And that happens with a function that is of great use, especially to new Emacs users. Couldn't there be a list of all groups in the beginning, with links going to the bindings belonging to the group? Or ideally, a list of all groups with a widget on each group that expands the group to show the full list of bindings? Lastly, I was wondering if one could use a better name for the menu item. "List Key Bindings" is of course perfectly correct from an Emacs terminology point of view. But as a new user, I would be looking for something like "Keyboard Functions" or "Keyboard Shortcuts" or so, not for "Bindings". The Help menu is really important and useful to newbies. It would be very helpful if one could make it easier to understand. Good suggestions, all. I wonder a bit about the last suggestion, however. It's true that menu items are the one place where we've substituted some common terminology (e.g. Paste) for Emacs jargon (e.g. Yank), but I'm not sure if the intention was to do this everywhere in Emacs menus. Clearest might be a short description that bridges the two namings - e.g. "Paste (Yank)", but again, should we do that everywhere? It could be cumbersome and overly complex. In the present case we might use "List Keyboard Shortcuts (Bindings)", but that is a bit long. I think "Keyboard Functions" is incorrect in this context, in any case. One possibility, similar to the approach taken with CUA (IIUC), would be to make the treatment configurable. Have a translation table between Emacs-jargon names and conventional names, and provide a user option for using one or the other (in menus). That might be heavy-handed for maintenance, but it would also be convenient for some users. Users of the conventional names would still need to make the transition at some point, of course (e.g. when reading the manual). And this would open the door to the possibility of menu translation for other languages... (=> can of worms). Beyond menu-item names, I think the intention was that synonyms would be introduced in the Emacs manual. If it is not already there, "keyboard shortcut" could be added as a synonym for "key binding". The notion of binding a command to a key sequence is important to understanding Emacs, so it cannot be skipped over. But there's nothing wrong with also mentioning that the bound key sequences are sometimes referred to elsewhere as "keyboard shortcuts". There is also the ternminology problem discussed recently of "key" sequences (and bindings) not necessarily involving keyboard keys... Anyway, I didn't mean to distract from your suggestions. It would be good if some of them could be implemented before the release - in particular, adding top-level links to sections and moving the encoded-kbd-self-insert-ccl stuff to the back burner.