From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: File menu changes (suggestions) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:33:47 -0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1119913898 12108 80.91.229.2 (27 Jun 2005 23:11:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:11:38 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jun 28 01:11:36 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dn2l7-0007SC-7c for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 01:11:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dn2sq-0008DV-9k for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:19:20 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dn2gp-0004Fk-Fx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:06:55 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dn2bW-0003Tj-2i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:01:29 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dn2bQ-0003I1-Tn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:01:20 -0400 Original-Received: from [148.87.122.30] (helo=rgminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1Dn2F9-00066U-I0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:38:19 -0400 Original-Received: from rgminet01.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id j5RMXp2w011290 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:33:51 -0600 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.50]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id j5RMXns2011240 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:33:50 -0600 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j5RMXnEf015249 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:33:49 -0600 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dradams-lap.us.oracle.com [130.35.177.126]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with SMTP id j5RMXm8P015242 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:33:49 -0600 Original-To: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:39701 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:39701 > FYI, "One Window" is what we had before Emacs 21.1. Like > I said: we are regressing. > > Not all movement from one version to the next is progress. > It happens sometimes that previous behavior was better than > current behavior. Life is like that, sometimes. With all due respect, I don't know where you get the right to talk about the 21.1 menu design with such an arrogance. With all due respect, don't get nasty. I did not mention 21.1 - or any particular Emacs version. You quoted my message in its entirety, and it says nothing about specific versions. And I do have the right to talk about any design - anyone does. And I do not feel arrogant - sorry if you take my suggestions that way. I simply pointed out the general rule that not all evolution is in the direction of progress. Or at least that's what I meant to say. Sorry if that wasn't clear. You, on the other hand, labeled "regression" any move to return to a previous state. "regression: 1) Reversion; retrogression. 2) Relapse to a less perfect or developed state." You assume perhaps that all past changes have improved things; I don't share that point of view - in general or in the particular case of Emacs. My point was that, instead of considering all movement to a previous state to be regression, we should consider potential changes on a case-by-case basis, judging them on their own merits - regardless of whether they might have already been visited. Even if most past Emacs changes have meant progress (which is what I think), we should still be able to question any of them and suggest improvements. My general remark about evolution was a response to your blanket judgement that we are regressing by even considering renamings like "New File" -> "Open". Such a change might represent a return to the past, but that would not, by itself, constitute regression. By speaking of "regression", you put a negative value on such a movement, in a wholesale way. If you take the (arrogant?) point of view that we have already achieved the "best of all possible worlds" because lots of discussion, research, experimentation, and expertise went into the existing design, then yes, it's futile not only to suggest repeating a past state but also to suggest any other changes. I (arrogantly?) have a less deferential attitude toward the status quo, but that doesn't mean that I don't value and respect it, its history, and the people who constructed it - I do. By contrast, your suggestions are based on opinions of a single individual. How do you know what I base my suggestions on? On the other hand, yes, my suggestions reflect my opinions, of course. It seems to me that you are the one who is arrogantly arguing from authority. I'm only speaking my mind, and, yes, I only speak for myself. You don't have to agree, but please try to be polite. ad hominem ad nauseum.