From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: My emacs was upgraded and I am a novice again Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 07:47:01 -0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1190818093 15940 80.91.229.12 (26 Sep 2007 14:48:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 14:48:13 +0000 (UTC) To: "Eli Zaretskii" , Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 26 16:48:08 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1IaYBE-00028M-5q for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:48:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaYBB-0006Ul-5n for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:47:57 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IaYAq-0006Rg-7d for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:47:36 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IaYAp-0006Qf-Pi for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:47:35 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaYAp-0006QV-Er for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:47:35 -0400 Original-Received: from rgminet01.oracle.com ([148.87.113.118]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1IaYAk-0005DH-Fz; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:47:30 -0400 Original-Received: from agmgw2.us.oracle.com (agmgw2.us.oracle.com [152.68.180.213]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id l8QElLVA019174; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:47:21 -0600 Original-Received: from acsmt350.oracle.com (acsmt350.oracle.com [141.146.40.150]) by agmgw2.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.0/Switch-3.2.0) with ESMTP id l8QBmSZ3012065; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:47:20 -0600 Original-Received: from dhcp-amer-csvpn-gw2-141-144-76-1.vpn.oracle.com by acsmt350.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3245886051190817993; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 07:46:33 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 In-reply-to: X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Detected-Kernel: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:47878 Archived-At: > > > > M-x icicle-doc RET mail S-SPC mode line > > > > > > > > shows all doc strings that match both `mail' and `mode line', > > > > in any order, as completion candidates. > > > > > > So does "M-x apropos", which is part of Emacs. > > > > Not at all the same (`apropos' does not even use completion, of > > any kind). Likewise all the other vanilla Emacs `apropos-*' > > commands. Read the rest of the behavior I described (no need to > > repeat it). If you still don't understand the difference, read > > the doc I pointed to. There is no relation here to what you get > > in vanilla Emacs. > > I thought we were talking about searching the doc, not about > completion. My statement that you replied to talked about completion. Even if you forget about completion, `apropos' will _not_ show you all doc strings that match both `mail' and `mode line', in any order. Neither will `apropos-documentation' nor any other Emacs `apropos-*' command. I mentioned a particular search interface that uses matching of doc strings as completion candidates and lets you access the doc of any number of candidates on the fly. You said that `apropros' does the same thing. It does not, starting with the completion. But even disregarding completion, it does not do the same thing; it simply does not give you the same result/power/behavior. > If completion makes a big difference, how about adding > this feature to Emacs? I tried, as you might remember. It's not just "completion" as it is known in vanilla Emacs; it's a set of features related to completion. Icicles exploits input completion, using it as a way to dynamically define and manipulate sets (that match your input). Emacs does that in a limited way; Icicles pushes the limits in this regard. > > Had vanilla Emacs been able to do what I described (or equivalent, with > > equivalent ease), I would have pointed to vanilla Emacs. > > IMO, we ridicule ourselves if we send users to unbundled packages for > documentation commands, especially when the user, like the OP, wants > to locate a feature that is part of the official package. Emacs is a > self-documenting program, so every useful feature related to > documentation should be an integral part of it. I didn't ridicule anyone, including myself. I'm pretty sure that Icicles users regard the features that Icicles offers to easily examine/search/explore vanilla Emacs help as some of the Icicles features they use the most. There is no contradiction. Icicles helps you use Emacs - including using Emacs help. No need for anyone to feel ridiculous. Enjoy. Vanilla Emacs help is very good; no question about it. That does not mean that it is always easy to find everything, or that improvements cannot be made. Icicles helps you use Emacs help. I gave one example; many more are described in the doc. Here is an overview: http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/Icicles_-_Nutshell_View.