From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>
Subject: RE: mouse-1-click-follows-link
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:26:14 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <DNEMKBNJBGPAOPIJOOICEEFECJAA.drew.adams@oracle.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <DNEMKBNJBGPAOPIJOOICCEEJCJAA.drew.adams@oracle.com>
Summary:
(1) mouse-1-click-follows-link: it should be `nil' everywhere. (I've
changed my opinion.)
(2) We should change the link mouseover pointer.
(3) Hot-zone extent should not be based on a supposed tradeoff between
setting point and following a link. That's a red herring.
Reasons below. Here's where we are now:
mouse-1-click-follows-link is nicely defined to satisfy everyone,
I think. You can turn off mouse-1 link sensitivity completely or
activate it on: 1) short (fast) click, 2) long (slow) click, or 3)
double-click. Good job.
What we've *not* come to agreement on yet:
1) Whether the behavior should always be the same in each buffer
or should possibly vary by buffer. If the latter, should this be
user-changeable (e.g. local values) or not?
2) What the default value should be. If we allow local values,
this means both a) the default global value and b) the default
local values for different categories of standard buffers
(e.g. those dense with links, like Dired, vs those sparse with
links, like Info).
Our options include `nil' (mouse-1 doesn't follow links at all),
+integer (fast click follows link), -integer (slow click follows
link), and `double' (double-click follows link).
Here's what I said before:
My opinion:
1. Users should be able to have different behaviors in different
buffers, in this regard.
2. The global (default) value should be `nil': mouse-1 should be
insensitive to links by default.
3. The default value for buffers that are sparse with hot spots
(e.g. Info, Help, Customize) should be 100 ms (fast click follows
link).
4. The default value for buffers that are dense with hot spots
(e.g. Dired, grep, compilation) and for which users will likely
want to set point occasionally should be `double' (double-click
follows link).
5. The default value for buffers that are dense with hot spots,
but for which users don't need to set point at all (eg. Buffer
List) should be 100 ms (fast click follows link). (There are
probably few such standard buffers.)
(1) I've changed my opinion on #4 and #5. By default, the value should
be `nil' everywhere: mouse-1 should *not* follow links.
Reasons:
a. mouse-2 as yank is not needed on a link, so mouse-2 is a
perfect choice for following links. That was surely behind the
original design, and it remains the best argument for mouse-2.
Having mouse-1 sometimes follow a link and sometimes set point
(e.g. via different delays), in the same buffer, always involves
some UI tradeoffs (fast-click, slow-click, double-click). That's
OK, but it should not be the _default_ behavior anywhere.
b. With mouse-1-click-follows-links, especially if we allow local
values, everyone can do what he wants, wherever he wants. This
includes people who use mice without mouse-2. IOW, even if mouse-2
is the default for links, users can choose instead to use mouse-1
in various ways for linking. Previously, users could not easily
switch to mouse-1; now they can.
c. Newbies will discover mouse-2 for links soon enough. They will need
to discover it for yanking, anyway; it is no harder to learn it for
linking. Up front, we should:
(i) Tell them about mouse-2 for linking.
(ii) Suggest they try it for a while ("try it; you'll like it").
(iii) Tell them they can change it: mouse-1-click-follows-link.
d. It is not difficult to go back and forth between mouse-2 for
linking in Emacs and mouse-1 in other apps. We all do it all the
time. The argument that people are "used to mouse-1 for linking" is
countered by c plus d - there are two aspects to it.
(2) As I said in October, and which led to Kim coming up with using
mouse-1 for linking, we should change the finger-pointer cursor over
links. The index-finger pointer _suggests_ using mouse-1.
That pointer is commonly used by Web browsers to indicate that the
pointer is over a hyperlink or an action button, so that's
presumably the reason it is now used in Emacs for the same thing.
However, in common Web browsers, the mouse button to activate
such a link or button is mouse-1, not mouse-2. What bugs me is
that the index-finger pointer suggests to me to use mouse-1,
because the index finger (wired, in my head, to mouse-1) is the
one doing the pointing.
RMS and Kim both thought I was asking to use mouse-1 for links. I was
only suggesting to change the mouseover pointer. RMS wrote:
Mouse-1 can't do that. Mouse-1 in Emacs is a general Emacs
command that is meanigful anywhere in the buffer.
Anyway, this is not the time to change features.
Kim came up with a patch to use mouse-1 for links, and we were off and
running. I wrote:
> My point was not that using mouse-2 is not good. I think mouse-2
> should remain the way to click links and buttons in Emacs...
But we went with mouse-1 for links, because it is "common user
interface practice" and some people don't have a mouse-2.
So far: 1) Let's use mouse-2 for links, by default. 2) Let's change
the link pointer from an index-finger. My last point:
(3) We should make decisions about the extent (and placement) of hot
zones (links, buttons) based on other criteria, besides a tradeoff
between setting point and following a link - that is a red herring.
We should design hot zones assuming that there is no problem setting
point: assume that mouse-1 sets point and mouse-2 activates hot spots.
So, in particular, I repeat that full-line links are better for
buffers like grep, compilation, and Dired, because of the alignment
aid and ease of use they provide. If Emacs doesn't do this by default,
it should at least provide an easy way for users to get this
behavior. To repeat:
8. Users should be able to have full-line hot zones for buffers
that are essentially lists of links. This includes grep,
compilation, and Dired. RMS has apparently decided to reduce the
hot-zone size for grep. I prefer full-line links. It would be good
for users to be able to customize this, regardless of the default
behavior.
IOW, because of the recent move to mouse-1 following links (even
potentially), we are now losing full-line links in grep. People
accidentally followed links (me too), so the hot zones are now
being reduced to alleviate this problem.
I don't agree with that solution to the problem, but all I would
ask for is a way for users to get back the full-line link
behavior. Mouse-1 is extremely customizable now via
mouse-1-click-follows-links, but the hot-zone extent is not
customizable at all, without rewriting the grep/compile code.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2005-06-15 16:26 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 120+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2005-06-10 23:21 mouse-1-click-follows-link Nick Roberts
2005-06-11 1:56 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Daniel Brockman
2005-06-11 9:55 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Nick Roberts
2005-06-11 16:21 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Daniel Brockman
2005-06-12 7:51 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Nick Roberts
2005-06-12 19:57 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Richard Stallman
2005-06-13 16:19 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Drew Adams
2005-06-13 18:51 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Jason Rumney
2005-06-13 20:15 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Drew Adams
2005-06-13 20:49 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Jason Rumney
2005-06-13 21:50 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link David Kastrup
2005-06-13 22:07 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Jason Rumney
2005-06-13 22:18 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link David Kastrup
2005-06-14 2:03 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Miles Bader
2005-06-14 5:53 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Lennart Borgman
2005-06-14 7:03 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Jason Rumney
2005-06-14 20:06 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Lennart Borgman
2005-06-13 22:28 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Juanma Barranquero
2005-06-14 8:02 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Nick Roberts
2005-06-14 8:37 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Juanma Barranquero
2005-06-14 12:29 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Mathias Dahl
2005-06-14 12:43 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link David Kastrup
2005-06-14 12:54 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Mathias Dahl
2005-06-14 13:21 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Juanma Barranquero
2005-06-14 13:14 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Juanma Barranquero
2005-06-14 21:58 ` What holds the release (was: mouse-1-click-follows-link) Eli Zaretskii
2005-06-14 22:54 ` Juanma Barranquero
2005-06-15 2:13 ` John S. Yates, Jr.
2005-06-15 3:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-06-15 7:29 ` Juanma Barranquero
2005-06-15 13:06 ` What holds the release Mathias Dahl
2005-06-15 3:12 ` What holds the release (was: mouse-1-click-follows-link) Miles Bader
2005-06-15 7:36 ` Juanma Barranquero
2005-06-15 8:05 ` Miles Bader
2005-06-15 8:23 ` Juanma Barranquero
2005-06-15 15:05 ` Chong Yidong
2005-06-15 16:21 ` What holds the release Stefan Monnier
2005-06-20 3:50 ` Richard Stallman
2005-06-16 16:24 ` What holds the release (was: mouse-1-click-follows-link) Richard Stallman
2005-06-20 3:50 ` Richard Stallman
2005-06-16 4:07 ` Richard Stallman
2005-06-16 7:51 ` Juanma Barranquero
2005-06-15 3:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-06-15 7:40 ` Juanma Barranquero
2005-06-15 18:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-06-15 17:49 ` Juanma Barranquero
2005-06-16 4:08 ` Richard Stallman
2005-06-16 8:09 ` Juanma Barranquero
2005-06-16 10:48 ` What holds the release David Kastrup
2005-06-16 12:39 ` Juanma Barranquero
2005-06-16 15:22 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2005-06-16 19:43 ` What holds the release (was: mouse-1-click-follows-link) Eli Zaretskii
2005-06-16 21:08 ` Juanma Barranquero
2005-06-17 4:38 ` Richard Stallman
2005-06-14 21:48 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Eli Zaretskii
2005-06-14 22:20 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Juanma Barranquero
2005-06-13 22:47 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Stefan Monnier
2005-06-13 23:29 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Drew Adams
2005-06-14 1:26 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Daniel Brockman
2005-06-14 14:04 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Stefan Monnier
2005-06-14 2:25 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link David Abrahams
2005-06-14 6:00 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Lennart Borgman
2005-06-14 18:08 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Drew Adams
2005-06-14 20:25 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Stefan Monnier
2005-06-14 20:42 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Drew Adams
2005-06-15 16:26 ` Drew Adams [this message]
2005-06-15 20:34 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Daniel Brockman
2005-06-16 4:08 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Richard Stallman
2005-06-14 7:28 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Kim F. Storm
2005-06-14 8:36 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link David Kastrup
2005-06-13 20:35 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Jason Rumney
2005-06-14 7:27 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Kim F. Storm
2005-06-14 11:32 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Jason Rumney
2005-06-14 11:56 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Kim F. Storm
2005-06-15 14:46 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Richard Stallman
2005-06-15 14:56 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Kim F. Storm
2005-06-15 15:07 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Lennart Borgman
2005-06-15 16:26 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Drew Adams
2005-06-16 16:24 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Richard Stallman
2005-06-15 16:45 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Jason Rumney
2005-06-17 12:17 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Juri Linkov
2005-06-17 13:08 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Jason Rumney
2005-06-17 18:46 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Richard Stallman
2005-06-17 22:26 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Jason Rumney
2005-06-18 11:11 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Robert J. Chassell
2005-06-18 13:54 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Juri Linkov
2005-06-17 13:34 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Nick Roberts
2005-06-17 18:46 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Richard Stallman
2005-06-18 13:54 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Juri Linkov
2005-06-19 3:51 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Richard Stallman
2005-06-19 13:03 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Juri Linkov
2005-06-20 3:50 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Richard Stallman
2005-06-17 12:04 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Juri Linkov
2005-06-17 18:46 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Richard Stallman
2005-06-14 2:02 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Miles Bader
2005-06-14 13:35 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Robert J. Chassell
2005-06-14 15:00 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Daniel Brockman
2005-06-14 19:26 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Robert J. Chassell
2005-06-15 14:46 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Richard Stallman
2005-06-15 17:27 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link David Abrahams
2005-06-15 18:56 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link David Kastrup
2005-06-15 19:06 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link David Abrahams
2005-06-16 16:23 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Richard Stallman
2005-06-15 14:46 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Richard Stallman
2005-06-14 19:29 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Lennart Borgman
2005-06-13 22:19 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Nick Roberts
2005-06-13 23:07 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link David Kastrup
2005-06-13 23:30 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Drew Adams
2005-06-11 23:16 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Richard Stallman
2005-06-12 7:56 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Nick Roberts
2005-06-12 19:57 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Richard Stallman
2005-06-13 6:06 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Juri Linkov
2005-06-11 23:16 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Richard Stallman
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2005-06-17 14:42 mouse-1-click-follows-link LENNART BORGMAN
2005-06-17 15:36 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Stefan Monnier
2005-06-17 13:44 mouse-1-click-follows-link LENNART BORGMAN
2005-06-17 13:59 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Jason Rumney
2005-06-17 18:46 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Richard Stallman
2005-01-01 16:43 mouse-1-click-follows-link Piet van Oostrum
2005-01-06 22:11 ` mouse-1-click-follows-link Kim F. Storm
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