From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: My emacs was upgraded and I am a novice again Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:23:24 -0700 Message-ID: References: <711a73df0709220612x13ce8302odcfd43a8f2dadd3@mail.gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1190478408 1508 80.91.229.12 (22 Sep 2007 16:26:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 16:26:48 +0000 (UTC) To: "Dave Pawson" , "emac list" Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 22 18:26:41 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1IZ7oW-0006JT-Ld for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 18:26:40 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZ7oT-00068w-D4 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:26:37 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IZ7oC-00066w-9G for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:26:20 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IZ7o8-000638-Tl for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:26:19 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZ7o8-000631-Kh for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:26:16 -0400 Original-Received: from rgminet01.oracle.com ([148.87.113.118]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1IZ7o8-00058v-Su for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:26:17 -0400 Original-Received: from agmgw2.us.oracle.com (agmgw2.us.oracle.com [152.68.180.213]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id l8MGOuL8005446; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:24:56 -0600 Original-Received: from acsmt351.oracle.com (acsmt351.oracle.com [141.146.40.151]) by agmgw2.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.0/Switch-3.2.0) with ESMTP id l8MGOu0c020448; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:24:56 -0600 Original-Received: from dhcp-amer-whq-csvpn-gw3-141-144-80-168.vpn.oracle.com by acsmt350.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3236555381190478190; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:23:10 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: <711a73df0709220612x13ce8302odcfd43a8f2dadd3@mail.gmail.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Detected-Kernel: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:47741 Archived-At: > I find the emacs info pages a pain to navigate compared to searchable, > indexable html pages derived from indexed xml. That's my bias I guess. >=20 > I was trying to be helpful Eli. Nothing wrong with your motivation. And, yes, trying to provide a useful = index (in whatever form) usually requires some human effort and judgment = - automatic indexing is somewhat limited in practice. Eli, too, was trying to be helpful - and he was helpful, no? You'll find = that usually when Eli learns of another possible path to some term or = some section in an Emacs manual, he adds it to one or more manual = indexes. And he typically asks, when someone has difficulty finding = information, _how_ they were going about it unsuccessfully, in order to = try to improve the search process and indexing. In this case, he will no = doubt add some terms to accomodate your quandary. You need only make it = clear what you are searching for and how you went about it. You are right that it can be problematic (and useful!) to collect user = input about what should perhaps be new index entries. Only a certain = number of users will use help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org and let others know = about their frustrated attempts to look something up. But if a user does = raise the question here, Eli will usually respond and take the user's = quest into consideration.=20 You could also create a page on EmacsWiki to collect such keywords: = http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/SiteMap. Then, either Eli or some = other Emacs developer might occasionally check what has been added = there, or you or someone else could occasionally post here any new = entries that are collected there. Emacs Wiki is an incredible = collaborative resource, and it's low-key, dumb-easy to use. As frequenters of this list and emacs-devel@gnu.org will attest, Eli and = I don't always agree ;-), but followup to improve the manual indexes is = one area (there are others) where I think he does a terrific job. The = point here is that your proposal to collect unsuccessful user search = attempts, synonyms and the like can be plugged into the existing = mechanisms such as manual indexes, and Eli is quite helpful in this = regard. Wrt difficulty navigating Emacs Info pages: try Icicles - = http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/Icicles. Command = `icicle-Info-index' (`i' in Info) lets you easily navigate index = entries, and command `icicle-Info-goto-node' (`g' in Info) lets you = easily browse Info nodes. They let you type a substring or other regexp = and zip around all index terms or node names that match, in any order. = See http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/Icicles_-_Info_Enhancements. And (no relation with Icicles) with Emacs 22, you can use incremental = search throughout a manual. If something has no index entry, try = repeated `C-s'. Then let help-gnu-emacs know if you think what you were = looking for should be added to the index. Wrt "indexable html pages derived from indexed xml": It's not a bad = idea, and it has been discussed before by Emacs development = contributors. Info is currently not XML or HTML based, and a move in = such a direction is not trivial. But all ideas and implementation and = design efforts are appreciated - emacs-devel@gnu.org.