From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Proposal to improve the nomenclature of scrolling directions Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 07:43:28 -0800 Message-ID: References: <87a9uvv6ng.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp><87bof9s7cl.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix><87390kv9z2.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <85fw4kz6to.fsf@member.fsf.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1352389434 10621 80.91.229.3 (8 Nov 2012 15:43:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 15:43:54 +0000 (UTC) To: "'Stephen Leake'" , Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 08 16:44:03 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1TWUGt-0007BF-0u for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2012 16:43:59 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53885 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TWUGj-0005uA-Ul for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2012 10:43:49 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:36027) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TWUGd-0005tp-Ac for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2012 10:43:47 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TWUGV-0001Rd-Sl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2012 10:43:43 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:42969) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TWUGV-0001RZ-M9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2012 10:43:35 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id qA8FhXKZ027710 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 8 Nov 2012 15:43:34 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id qA8FhXei013988 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Nov 2012 15:43:33 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt111.oracle.com (abhmt111.oracle.com [141.146.116.63]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id qA8FhXUV012990; Thu, 8 Nov 2012 09:43:33 -0600 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.219.3) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 08 Nov 2012 07:43:32 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <85fw4kz6to.fsf@member.fsf.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 Thread-Index: Ac29ogUClkG5MYn9TD+zlO8BR5/1EwAH7y6Q X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:154735 Archived-At: > Once you get used to thinking about things in terms of > _either_ viewport or content, scrolling makes sense. > > Apple recently changed the direction; > http://www.pcworld.com/article/236182/osx_lion_scrolling.html > > I'm not clear whether Emacs matched Apple before or after the change; > the article talks about "finger motion", not "mouse motion". > > > While I don't dispute that your model is what describe, and don't > > really have any ground to claim it's a minority view, I believe that > > "everybody's mental model" is rather more nuanced. Not to mention > > "plural". :-) > > +1 > > Which means there's not much point in changing Emacs functionality, > although adding the concept of "viewport" to the documentation > would be a good idea. The direction of scrolling and its Emacs jargon gets nominated here periodically as some people's favorite way in which Emacs is old-fashioned & naughty and needs to be sent back for regrooving, to be put in step with The One Exo-Emacs Way (TOEEW). That such a non-issue rises to the top here occasionally suggests how little Emacs must really need to be regrooved. This is one of the silliest ways we could possibly want to spin our wheels looking for improvements. As Stephen L. suggests, it just doesn't matter, in terms of use, as long as the behavior is consistent. Sure, it can matter a teeny tiny bit for someone who is coding Emacs Lisp and needs to call scrolling functions. But it's trivial to check which direction is which. Users are rarely even aware of the scrolling-command names. And if made aware I doubt they would really care what you call them. There have been lots of approaches to scrolling in the history of UIs, and there still are multiple approaches in specialized UI areas (e.g. CAD/CAM). There has never been a real problem for users to understand or adapt, even when they have had to switch among multiple kinds of scroll bars etc. The Emacs-needs-to-fit-The-One-Way-now crowd is the fruit of a period when, yes, there is less variety and experimentation when it comes to such basic UI constructs. It does not follow that Emacs needs to TOEEW the line. This is a non-issue. Trying to cram the splendid sculpture that is Emacs into a perceived TOEEW pinhole is about as misguided as it gets. Just let it be. Circulez ; il n'y a rien a voir.