From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Shrinking the C core Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2023 06:53:39 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87ledwx7sh.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22509"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 28 12:54:57 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qaZtU-0005U4-W8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 12:54:53 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qaZsp-0007ov-5Q; 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envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR05-DB8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 28 Aug 2023 06:54:06 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:309416 Archived-At: Po Lu writes: > Arthur Miller writes: > >> Very interesting discussion going on for a long time. >> >> I think you are all correct, and wrong to an extent, but I believe that >> nobody has touched the fundamental issue: emacs design is flawed beyond >> repair for todays machines. Not necessarily in pejorative meaning, but >> to repair Emacs you would have to significantly rework internals, to the >> point of entire design rewrite. Emacs is a child of its time (like >> everything else). It was designed for the time of single-core slow >> machine, and its design makes sense in that perspective. However, for >> todays multicore machines, the fact that a lisp machine is slapped on >> top of an existing text editor (Gosslings I guess), and everything is >> shared via global state, can't be addressed in any other way but to >> rewrite Emacs core from ground up. No amount of patch slapping onto the >> current design can compensate for the lack of appropriate desing. > > Unix was designed for 16-bit uniprocessor machines, where the only form > of ``interlocking'' was: > > int x = spltty (); > splx (x); > > But today, both free BSD Unix and proprietary Unix scale to SMPs with > hundereds of processors, exploiting intricate interlocking around > individual kernel data structures. The perfect antithesis to your > standpoint... In which way is it "the perfect antithesis" to my standpoint, and what is my standpoint? If you wrote: "where the only form of ``interlocking'' **is**", than it would certainly be a "perfect anthithesis", but since you are using the term *was* it means it *is no more*, a past tense, something that has changed, and change is what I have suggested. I think you are missunderstanding what I am saying: I am saying that design needs to be changed; and the other thing is that I am suggesting to rewrite the core API in CL instead of C, since you will get all those things that constitute the Lisp Machine out for free; a better garbage collector, a better threading, and better Lisp that are people are often asking for. Of course you can implement all that stuff in C as well, it just that it means redoing work that other people has done elsewhere.