From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 17:08:02 -0800 Message-ID: References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org><62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org><83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org> <871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org><962D35497CE84D16B1B5F7AA509BFB59@us.oracle.com><878vljchjo.fsf@mail.jurta.org><76BD385B7317495CAE8E5EBFE545A1BB@us.oracle.com><87d3av9khw.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ipkn6poj.fsf@mail.jurta.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1325984908 31950 80.91.229.12 (8 Jan 2012 01:08:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 01:08:28 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii' , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "'Juri Linkov'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 08 02:08:21 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhFD-0002yF-2A for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:08:19 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54790 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhFC-0007Gp-IL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:08:18 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41332) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhF9-0007Gi-QE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:08:16 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhF8-0003HY-T6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:08:15 -0500 Original-Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:37334) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhF6-0003HA-Vy; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:08:13 -0500 Original-Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0818AlV024938 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 01:08:11 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q08189G5000731 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 01:08:10 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt112.oracle.com (abhmt112.oracle.com [141.146.116.64]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q08189Kh015022; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 19:08:09 -0600 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.36.141) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 17:08:08 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87ipkn6poj.fsf@mail.jurta.org> thread-index: AczNlwOJmYFslxOITVO2S80NRL8Q/wABBw5A X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090208.4F08EC7B.0058,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 148.87.113.117 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:147466 Archived-At: > > I find nothing in the Emacs 23.1, or 23.2, or 23.3 NEWS > > about `Info-edit', in particular, no deprecation notice. > > Unless such a notice appeared somewhere else > > that I haven't found, `Info-edit' was not deprecated in > > 23.1, even if 23.1 happened to break it (whether by > > breadcrumbs or some other way). > > There are two ways to make a feature legally obsolete: `de > jure' and `de facto'. > > De facto it's already obsolete since 23.1, Nope; it's not. Just because a bug exists does not mean that something is obsolete, de jure, de facto, or de lusion. And the particular bug you point to is apparently an incompatibility between two features (breadcrumbs and `Info-edit'). That could be fixed any number of ways, none of which need amount to the abandonment of either feature. > and now you propose to declare this fact de jure. Again, you are putting words in my mouth. I proposed nothing of the kind. > I agree that we could do this now by adding a > deprecation notice. You agree with yourself. ;-) Wrt breadcrumbs, you yourself pointed to several problems other than the one you would now use as a reason to deprecate `Info-edit' (bugs #1447, #5809, #5998). By your logic and using your terms, breadcrumbs have been obsolete, de facto, from their inception. The saving of inserted text, as you have pointed out, breaks more than `Info-edit', so it certainly should not by itself be an argument for making the latter obsolete. You already proposed disabling breadcrumbs (for 23.2) because of such problems. And you proposed multiple different solutions for those bugs, including changes to the display engine, redesigning header lines, and designing "a new window infrastructure that supports window groups" - fixes of varying complexity. And I offered a patch that uses the mode line for breadcrumbs as an alternative, with none of the problems of breadcrumbs in the body text or header. (No one tried, or commented on, the patch I sent.) http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=5809#140 And in my own code I offer users that alternative (breadcrumbs in header/text or in mode line, or both), with a quick toggle for mode-line display. http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/info%2b.el Pointing to bugs for Info breadcrumbs as a reason why `Info-edit' has supposedly been obsolete de jure since Emacs 23.1 is a little much, especially since those same bugs cause problems beyond `Info-edit'. It is a red herring de facto, in facto.